Video: Hsing Yi Chuan (Xingyiquan) Form and Applications

[suddenflower]

Master Wei-Chung Lin, a disciple of the Yizungyue School and the Chief Instructor of the Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association in Skokie Illinois, demonstrates a Hsing Yi Chuan (Xingyiquan) form and its applications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP5OEjYVzKQ

[Fu-Pow]

Very cool. I recognized some of the moves in the form from the Hun Yuan Taiji I do. The applications were very good and not fancy, very down to earth and especially when you encounter a flurry of attacks coming fast.

FP

[grncastle]

The form movement is from the shoulders and has no link to the core.

You must be nearly blind to say so!

Some of the applications are good, some bad and some outright ridiculous.

May be your skill level is not high enough to see the points. Be humble.

[suddenflower]

The form movement is from the shoulders and has no link to the core.

Some of the applications are good, some bad and some outright ridiculous.

To establish your credability and authority, would you be kind enough to show us some Xingyiquan movements not "from the shoulder" and "link to the core"? It will benefit us all to see your execution of Xingyiquan in a video. Don't refer us to someone else's video. We just like to see yours. We want to make sure that you are a true expert of Xingyi, not just a "Xingyi master on pen-and paper."

[tcphillips]

The form movement is from the shoulders and has no link to the core.

Some of the applications are good, some bad and some outright ridiculous.

Dude, How about you post something that indicates what you're going on about.

Your comment about Suddenflower's video suggests you posted with no link to the core of clear thinking and plain understanding.

Or is it that you wish to retract your post?

[grncastle]

Never-the-less, my opinion is what I stated. I have over three decades involved with Chinese Internal Martial Art, especially xingyi. To my eye, involving the video clip in question, it seems that the structure is not well grounded and the techniques are being delivered primarily with mechanical energy from the shoulder.

I feel sorry about your three decade's of Xingyi training; it is a total waste of time since you haven't learned anything (or even learn something wrong) judging from what you said here. If this is really what you saw in the video, you'd better start looking for a genuine Xingyi teacher and start all over again.

Also, given my experiences in fighting, many of the techniques (especially those involving spinning the body completely around while in the centerline of the opponent) are very foolish and will be easily countered. I stand by my opinions whether you agree or disagree.

The spinning actually is a back strike. It is quite common in Bagua also. There is a lot of skill involved in this kind of move. Your bad experiences may be due to your poor skill in executing this kind of advanced movement.

I thought the purpose of a forum was to be able to post one's opinions without censure. I made two statements based on my experience regarding the video clip posted, neither of which were derogatory. Unless of course all comments posted which are not filled with glowing praise are to be considered derogatory.

When you say something ridiculously and outrageously untrue, every sensible participants in the forum felt it. To maintain the integrity and prestige of this forum, you should be responsible for what you say. Do you need me to remind you about the comments on you by Master Mike Patterson in a previous thread?

[suddenflower]

I have had many genuine xingyi teachers. Not that it would matter to you, but some of my teachers have been or are currently some of the most respected in the field. And no, don't bother to ask me to disclose their names. I am here of my own accord, not theirs.

And yes, that is really what I saw in the video. Remember I did originally say there were some good things as well as some bad and some ridiculous. My other comment had to do with the mechanics and what seems to me to be a performance that is not worthy of the title "master", although I will concede that he is beyond novice certainly and approaching decent skills. And you are entitled to your own opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

A good bagua exponent would not execute a spinning "strike" to the inside of the opponent's center line. Spinning movements in bagua that are executed to the centerline are draws (flashing the back), not attacks. Your statements belie how little you actually understand about real fighting. And you, like so many others, are a victim of your own ignorance. On the other hand, I have fought both in competition and the street for most of my adult life. My "experiences" have nothing to do with a poor skill level. They have to do with reality. And reality says that such a technique will work only on scared students. But a determined opponent with decent skills will own you.

To save your time in describing your credentials and justifying your authorities, why don't you post a video, e.g., splitting fist or anything you have taped during the past three decades, so that we can tell how good you are? We are looking forward to seeing it.

[grncastle]

I have had many genuine xingyi teachers. Not that it would matter to you, but some of my teachers have been or are currently some of the most respected in the field. And no, don't bother to ask me to disclose their names. I am here of my own accord, not theirs.

Since your teachers are "the most respected in the field," then the problem may be that you didn't learn the essences of Xingyiquan. Even the greatest teacher in the world may produce a student with very poor skill.

My other comment had to do with the mechanics and what seems to me to be a performance that is not worthy of the title "master", although I will concede that he is beyond novice certainly and approaching decent skills. And you are entitled to your own opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But, don't forget that your opinion will be judged by the public.

A good bagua exponent would not execute a spinning "strike" to the inside of the opponent's center line. Spinning movements in bagua that are executed to the centerline are draws (flashing the back), not attacks. Your statements belie how little you actually understand about real fighting. And you, like so many others, are a victim of your own ignorance. On the other hand, I have fought both in competition and the street for most of my adult life. My "experiences" have nothing to do with a poor skill level. They have to do with reality. And reality says that such a technique will work only on scared students. But a determined opponent with decent skills will own you.

This actually reflects your ignorance on Bagua fighting. To avoid misjudging you, why don't you follow the suggestion of suddenflower to post a video on Bagua spinning movement?

You can remind all you want. That does not change my opinions. As I said, I don't impress easily. And the video clip does not impress me. End of story.

No body asked you to be impressed by the video. Just be reasonable and responsible on what you said.

[chrisfreel]

Uh huh. You first.

And I have all the time in the world. The reason I chose the name I did.. Anone.. is for two purposes. 1) "Anon" - Tomorrow; because there is always tomorrow and another day of training is another day toward true skill. And, 2) "a+none" as in I do not consider myself to be more than any other, hence "none".

But in regards to the man behind the mask; I am known by many and the many I do not wish to offend. Therefore, as I said earlier.. I am here of my own accord, not theirs. I say what I wish because the internet gives me, and you, and any other, the platform to do exactly that.

Because I go against your truth, you attack and belittle me. That's okay. Such resorts are always manifest in those who do not know but choose to believe. I have no problem with that and actually understand your mentality all too well.

I go on these forums so that there is not only "one voice". Because many who are truly seeking also go on these forums and I want them to have the opportunity to see differing opinions. Live with it.

You must be a troll. When he asks you to post a vid showing us anything to verify your skill, you say "you first". Uh, he did post something first. The video that started this thread, remember? Then you blather on about about your name. Like anyone cares. You talk a lot but don't say very much. Put up or shut up.

[grncastle]

So you're saying that "Wei-Chung Lin" is "suddenflower"?

Your statement here again reflects your poor reasoning ability. It is you who were asked to post a video in order to substantiate your claim that you are an expert in Xingyi or Bagua. Suddenflower has never claimed that he/she is an expert of any martial arts and there is no need for him/her to establish credability. Besides starting the thread, all he/she has said in this forum is to ask you to post a video. Whether he is Wei-Chung Lin or not is not an issue here. Don't try to shift our attention and evade the issue of you posting a video to establish your credability.

[cjurakpt]

I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;

as for the apps, some seems quite reasonable, others more stylized than practical, but one can say that about most any form of TMA: sooner or later the "flavor" of the system tends to overshadow the pragmatics; in many cases, the attackers' appeared to lack focus and intent in their strikes as well, which is also typical for students "attacking" their teacher

I don't think the guy is terrible, just not the best I have ever seen (I'd give about a 7 out of 10)

I suppose I will have to post my CV and sevral letters of referrence now...

[chrisfreel]

So you're saying that "Wei-Chung Lin" is "suddenflower"?

I actually don't know who "suddenflower" is. They asked you to post a video proving you're not some little 13 year old talking big from his mom's basement. Your response was "you first". Hey, they started the thread with a video, it doesn't matter whether it's them or not. You're the one with no cred.

But like I said already, you're probably here just to start arguments. You said you have lots of time. Maybe it's all for posting on the internet, not for practice.

[chrisfreel]

I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;

I assume you mean from the shoulders, not the hands, since that's pretty much impossible, right? Anyway, if it's internal, there wouldn't necessarily always be a big enough movement to tell, although of course it's something you can test. Since I've been on the receiving end, I'd say the connection is definitely there, though sometimes that's hard to see from a video. Also, the power generation isn't the same as most others use... no obvious movement from breathing or curving/straightening of the spine, for example.

as for the apps, some seems quite reasonable, others more stylized than practical, but one can say that about most any form of TMA: sooner or later the "flavor" of the system tends to overshadow the pragmatics; in many cases, the attackers' appeared to lack focus and intent in their strikes as well, which is also typical for students "attacking" their teacher

Yeah, but there's also the little fact that all the movements of the technique are pulled, so that the students will come back for the next class. This hurts the realism, but is the only practical way to practice some things.

I don't think the guy is terrible, just not the best I have ever seen (I'd give about a 7 out of 10)

I suppose I will have to post my CV and sevral letters of referrence now...

There's a big difference from a reasonable criticism "I don't see this..." and the kind of trash talk that someone else here is apparently famous for....

[cjurakpt]

I assume you mean from the shoulders, not the hands, since that's pretty much impossible, right?

the shoulders, of course, have to move, but the question is what does the moving? if talking about purely neuromuscular activation, it's basically starting and ending with anterior deltoids; when the power generation is from the pedal diaphragm (Subterannean Spring), it travels through the connective tissue network of the legs, spine and then to the shoulders where it joins the neuromuscular component

Anyway, if it's internal, there wouldn't necessarily always be a big enough movement to tell, although of course it's something you can test. Since I've been on the receiving end, I'd say the connection is definitely there, though sometimes that's hard to see from a video.

I'm not actually looking for visible movement; there is a qualitative aspect of whole body connective tissue activation that is discernable, albeit, as you point out, it is more difficult to see on a video; which is why I qualified it with "as far as I can tell"; basically, when it's there, the feeling is one of ease and fullness, when not, it's like driving your car with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake; as far as your subjective experience of feeling it directly, I have no capacity to refute that, since I haven't felt it myself; you may be delusional, you may be right on, I have no way of knowing;

Also, the power generation isn't the same as most others use... no obvious movement from breathing or curving/straightening of the spine, for example.

please elaborate, especially how one is able to move and not breathe in concert with the movement and get full body motion (the respiratory diaphragm, last I checked, is sorta important for spinal fluidity); I agree that you don't have to create large spinal undulations, but if you don't coordinate the breath, you are locking - which can certainly generate power, but in the long run you are throwing the autonomics out of balance by performing what amount to Valsalva maneuvers

Yeah, but there's also the little fact that all the movements of the technique are pulled, so that the students will come back for the next class. This hurts the realism, but is the only practical way to practice some things.

I'm not talking about pulling, i;m talking about context; that is, some of the apps look like "regular" boring old fighting; others are much more stylized, but rely on too many variables going the way you want them to be really applicable; which is fine, it is a martial "art", there is always going to be some stuff that is more artistic than others...

There's a big difference from a reasonable criticism "I don't see this..." and the kind of trash talk that someone else here is apparently famous for....

well, I don't know - it seems that people have a problem more with how something was said then what was said; but I haven't followed any of his other stuff, so I can't compare

[cruz]

Look Its Realy Hard To Say If Some One Has Real Skill Or Not Or Is Connected To The Core Or Not Just By Watching A Video .he May Just Be Empty Movements Or He May Be The Real Deal .you Will Never Know Inless You Get To Meat Him ..but I Can See Were Anone Gets His Opinion From