snake and crane wing chun

[Hendrik]

Wayne,
great to meet you.
The following is a brief from yik kam line.
We have traced to white crane and emei ...

紅船咏春拳探讨
苗顺融会峨眉十二桩和五枚福建白鹤拳创小练头.
中线身架来自福建白鹤蛇劲内功来自峨眉十二桩.
传严二再传女咏春及婿梁傅俦. 梁傅俦再传红船. 改名称成为咏春拳.
黄华宝梁赞分支改编小练头成为三拳套.咏春拳进一步发展成为当今咏春拳.
当今三套拳中仍保留峨眉十二桩和五枚福建白鹤拳种可以考证. 然而知音者少.不知音,拳很难练完整.

苗顺融会峨眉十二桩和五枚福建白鹤拳创小练头. 似乎是 1700中叶的事.苗顺, 五枚不是真实姓名. 记载: 只知道苗顺从五枚学习福建白鹤拳. 地点是广西. 苗顺去世前才告诉严二,苗顺教他的不是五枚福建白鹤拳.

咸丰年间粤剧艺人李文茂起义, 紅船咏春粤剧艺人正旦易金参加;易金咏春分支,
开拳礼 动作 是: 反清復明 五湖四海 十指連心 遝我河山 .
收拳礼 动作: 劍指膀肘逞英雄 .
這些反清義士有关太平天國. 所以易金傳下六點半棍訣說 "半點子午登槍定太平" .

易金一支仍保留紅船小练头一长套和拳訣. 拳訣中有峨眉十二桩和福建白鹤踪迹. 后世探讨咏春来源, 这拳訣是一种宝贵的资源.

比如,小練頭訣說,左手鞭出橫力勁, 神寄指爪袖底旁, 旋迥自然順脈气. 實為意動神到指爪气順手三陰三陽脈气走.是峨嵋＋二庄的獨門蛇行蛹動練法. 符合小練頭--眼對手 手對心 手從心發 一絲不苟--練法

訣中諸如 “集意会神平肩襠 双手前起半(分)陰阳”之句, 仍出自峨嵋十二庄. 諸如單朝阳仍出自福建白鶴.

中国傳统武功一般有三个層次.

1, 固本功夫練: 意靜,形正, 气順. 做到意形气相合為一
2, 應用功夫練 : 換勁,气勢, 心神. 所謂: 气連心意隨時用, 打破身式無遮攔
3, 養生功夫練 : 变化精神气貭. 所謂:進人无為而无不為.

從紅船易金傳下的小練頭歌訣來說. 以上第一和第＝層次的培訓是肯定的.

二字鉗阳馬之訣:

集意会神平肩襠 = 心息则神安，神安则气足，气足则血旺，血气流畅
双手前起分陰阳
左脚跘出有善惡
右跟曲勁紧收藏
气聚丹田督脉降 = 血气本来可以自然流通，却不可作意去使它流通。当排除其阻碍物，使得天然发展

集意会神平肩襠 -------- 是教怎樣用松靜自然站立練成從從容容支撑八方.
双手前起分陰阳 -------- 是以起手說一出手要清楚手法的正反側,其气脉,与作用反作用力的橾作
左脚跘出有善惡--------- 是以開步說每一動都有利害,左用力右必有反力
右跟曲勁紧收藏--------- 是說勁以曲松蓄,發勁如鳥脚惜下一蹬就起飞.
气聚丹田督脉降--------- 是以坐成鉗阳馬說守中聚養而不耗,升降開合.

在三维（3D）的空间里，我们的任何动作，甚至没有动作，所承受的都是六面力（vector of x,-x,y,-y,z,-z）。
要清楚地感觉到这六面力，以便能让身子维持在最平衡的点，就必须放松地，自然地，不紧绷肌肉，
以气息顺畅为目的，调整身体的架构。

練勁之訣:

左手鞭出橫力勁
神寄指爪袖底旁
旋迥自然順脈气 = 血气本来可以自然流通，却不可作意去使它流通。当排除其阻碍物，使得天然发展
一任自然气脉長. = 血气本来可以自然流通，却不可作意去使它流通。当排除其阻碍物，使得天然发展

[Hendrik]

Simply speaking, after the collapse of the Tai Ping Heavenly Kindom in the 1860s, a lot of rebellions, including RedBoat Opera, escape from persecution. Some were hiding, some were going to the South of China,(now Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore). That's why there is BaungChung Wing Chun（正旦金） in Malaysia and Singapore. 飛天馬騮派 in between China and Thailand, it is very like between Wing Chun and nowadays Thai's boxing. Fung Siu Ching was one of them, and he returned to GuangZhou meeting YuenKaiShan after the collape of Qing Dynasty. 'Snake Crane Wing Chun' is very closed to the YKS Wing Chun, now called GuangZhou Wing Chun. IN the Wikipedia about Wing Chun(Chinese version), they also bracketed a name beside called 'Snake Crane Wing Chun蛇鶴詠春'. You can also find a lot of old terms they used are exactly the old terms being used in Snake Crane Wing Chun, because both of them are from the same source 'Sun Kam', who is descended from ChiSin, Southern Shaolin. The Twin knieves, both they called them "YeeGeKimYeungDuMingDao', is different from other lineages. Also, the side stance, both they called 'GuyGinMa機剪馬'. Also, the 3 hand forms are very similiar.

In1980, the Chief Editor, Mr. Liu Kwong Wah, of the New Martial Hero Magazine, Hong Kong submitted an article saying there are five main lineages in Hong Kong to the Hong Kong Times Daily（香港時報）. Snake Crane Wing Chun is one of them.
Since it keeps itself in very low profile, there are seldom people knowing its existence.

The above just very briefly discuss about the 'Sun Kam' lineage, which is also streaming down to YKS Wing Chun, then GuangZhow Wing Chun. The other lineages other than the source from Chi Sin or Sun Kam, they should be sourced from Ng Mui and other guardian monks, both they developed and picked up the skills. After the fire of Southern Shaolin, they escaped and scattered in the different of the China. That's why different tributries have their own styles.

In my understanding, the pole set is different for different lineages. That is because different lineages belongs to different sect of lee man mau army. My ancestor yik kam is a lead of male playing female Actor sec. There are a few different sects and their salutations are also different. When they meet thier saluttion and pole set tell which set they belongs to.

Since you have 3 sets. It is very likely you are under Wong wah po. Yik kam keep one long set tradition, and Wong evolve into 3 sets.



*** 李文茂是清道光末年至咸丰初年粤剧凤凰仪班著名“打武家”，出身梨园世家，体格魁梧，声若洪钟，精于击刺等 武功。他平生轻财尚义，富有豪侠精神和反抗压迫思想。他是清末粤剧名演员，广东天地会起义军领袖。父亲原是 粤剧伶人，李文茂是演二净（二花脸）角色，擅长扮演《芦花荡》的张飞和《王彦章撑渡》的王彦章。他精通技击 ，为人仗义疏财，每到之处为当地粤剧伶人和群众所尊敬。１８５４年（咸丰四年），李文茂在洪秀全的号召下， 与陈开等在佛山等地起义，和太平天国一道分头反抗满清，当时他把粤剧班中的会武功的人，编为三军：小武及武 生为文虎军，二花脸和六分等编为猛虎军，五军虎及武打家编为飞虎军，李亲任三军统帅，他率领的粤剧子弟兵， 勇猛善战，他们利用戏班中翻跟斗的飞跃功夫，翻登城垣，屡立功勋，起义不久，势如破竹，攻占了广州府、肇庆 府、惠州府等辖下的十多个县。１８５５年（咸丰五年）清满政府下令禁演粤剧，执行禁令的是当时广东总督叶名 琛，他在广州曾被李文茂的粤剧子弟兵围攻多次，他对粤剧艺人深恶痛绝，因此，他不但禁演粤剧，还下令解散所 有的粤剧戏班，而且还焚毁佛山的“琼花会馆”（粤剧戏班组织的会所），追查和通缉与李文茂起义有关的粤剧艺 人，当时被株连和被杀害的粤剧艺人和人民数以千计。李文茂随陈开进入广西后，在桂平建立大成国 ，称平靖王。

[Runlikehell]

In my understanding, the pole set is different for different lineages. That is because different lineages belongs to different sect of lee man mau army. My ancestor yik kam is a lead of male playing female Actor sec. There are a few different sects and their salutations are also different. When they meet thier saluttion and pole set tell which set they belongs to.

Since you have 3 sets. It is very likely you are under Wong wah po. Yik kam keep one long set tradition, and Wong evolve into 3 sets.

Hendrik, Wong Wah Bo was said to have first taught Sun Kam the san sik that eventually made its way into the modern day Weng Chun curriculum before teaching Leung Jan the one SLT set before developing the individual sets (along with LJ).
Could he have gone back and taught Sun Kam the three sets that evolved from the long SLT?

Of course, this is just a thought.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, Wong Wah Bo was said to have first taught Sun Kam the san sik that eventually made its way into the modern day Weng Chun curriculum before teaching Leung Jan the one SLT set before developing the individual sets (along with LJ).
Could he have gone back and taught Sun Kam the three sets that evolved from the long SLT?

Of course, this is just a thought.

Everything is possible.

My view on the evolution are as the following.

1. I don't know about weng Chun because that is a different art comparing to wing Chun.

2.Horse rider who is in this forum who is the descended of Leung jan lineage has provided the information of the long set break into three sets in last year post.

3.According to ancient chinese martial art , a complete art has two parts the 體用 or body and application. San Sik is belong to the application part. While set consist of both the body and the application part. So, one cannot make a complete art from just the application part or San

The snake engine is a core of the body of the art.

[Runlikehell]

Everything is possible.

My view on the evolution are as the following.

1. I don't know about weng Chun because that is a different art comparing to wing Chun.

2.Horse rider who is in this forum who is the descended of Leung jan lineage has provided the information of the long set break into three sets in last year post.

3.According to ancient chinese martial art , a complete art has two parts the 體用 or body and application. San Sik is belong to the application part. While set consist of both the body and the application part. So, one cannot make a complete art from just the application part or San

The snake engine is a core of the body of the art.

Thank you for your insight.

Regarding Weng Chun, it seemed possible because Wong Wah Bo was said to have taught that first. Some of their san sik apparently resembles some of the san sik Leung Jan taught in Kulo, but that could just mean common origins or similar techniques.

Others with experience in Weng Chun, older Wing Chun lineages or with knowledge of that particular part of their histories may know more.

Yeah, I remember his post. From memory he said that his family still practice the long SLT descending from Wong Wah Bo.

I can imagine, but it seems likely that san sik could be added into the set without actually creating a complete set/art as such.

Thanks again.

[Hendrik]

Thank you for your insight.

Regarding Weng Chun, it seemed possible because Wong Wah Bo was said to have taught that first. Some of their san sik apparently resembles some of the san sik Leung Jan taught in Kulo, but that could just mean common origins or similar techniques.

Others with experience in Weng Chun, older Wing Chun lineages or with knowledge of that particular part of their histories may know more.

Yeah, I remember his post. From memory he said that his family still practice the long SLT descending from Wong Wah Bo.

I can imagine, but it seems likely that san sik could be added into the set without actually creating a complete set/art as such.

Thanks again.

IMHO,


one always can add San Sik to one's style, it is like adding mt round horse kick and bjj takes down .

Weng Chun is a hung gar /old hung kuen and CLF based art, it is a different art compare with wing Chun which is using siu Lin tau as the core center. Even kulo is practice and preserve the essence of siu Lin tau , but weng Chun divert from it. Further more, take a look at the engine, although weng Chun has move similar to wing Chun, it doesn't use snake engine but old hung kuen and CLF type of engine. A good way is to freeze time at 1960 take a look at both style and observe. Today is not a good observing point because there are plenty of more add in from wing Chun, weng Chun, to taiji. 1960 is less distorted.

[Yoshiyahu]

how can u look at 1960?

how can you compare them???????????

IMHO,


one always can add San Sik to one's style, it is like adding mt round horse kick and bjj takes down .

Weng Chun is a hung gar /old hung kuen and CLF based art, it is a different art compare with wing Chun which is using siu Lin tau as the core center. Even kulo is practice and preserve the essence of siu Lin tau , but weng Chun divert from it. Further more, take a look at the engine, although weng Chun has move similar to wing Chun, it doesn't use snake engine but old hung kuen and CLF type of engine. A good way is to freeze time at 1960 take a look at both style and observe. Today is not a good observing point because there are plenty of more add in from wing Chun, weng Chun, to taiji. 1960 is less distorted.

[Runlikehell]

IMHO,


one always can add San Sik to one's style, it is like adding mt round horse kick and bjj takes down .

Weng Chun is a hung gar /old hung kuen and CLF based art, it is a different art compare with wing Chun which is using siu Lin tau as the core center. Even kulo is practice and preserve the essence of siu Lin tau , but weng Chun divert from it. Further more, take a look at the engine, although weng Chun has move similar to wing Chun, it doesn't use snake engine but old hung kuen and CLF type of engine. A good way is to freeze time at 1960 take a look at both style and observe. Today is not a good observing point because there are plenty of more add in from wing Chun, weng Chun, to taiji. 1960 is less distorted.

Thanks again for the insight. I understand what you mean.

how can u look at 1960?

how can you compare them???????????

I could be way off, but say for example you use the known lineages teaching Yip Man Wing Chun in HK in 1960, most if not everyone probably taught the WC they had learned from Yip Sifu/his senior instructors.

Now it's easy for people to maintain personal expressions while also adding in elements from other MA to further express themselves and to reach their goals as a martial artist.

Of course, these are just my thoughts. It's technically impossible to travel to the past but that's what it seems like to me.

[Hendrik]

Thanks again for the insight. I understand what you mean.



I could be way off, but say for example you use the known lineages teaching Yip Man Wing Chun in HK in 1960, most if not everyone probably taught the WC they had learned from Yip Sifu/his senior instructors.

Now it's easy for people to maintain personal expressions while also adding in elements from other MA to further express themselves and to reach their goals as a martial artist.

Of course, these are just my thoughts. It's technically impossible to travel to the past but that's what it seems like to me.

From old photos, article, film....ect. 1960 photos were popular.

[Runlikehell]

From old photos, article, film....ect. 1960 photos were popular.

Yes, that's very true.

[Hendrik]

Yes, that's very true.

One time some one is discussing WCK in south east Asia, and I ask them to shows their picture collection of 60, 70, 80, 90 and present day. That tells the story of the lineage.

[Runlikehell]

One time some one is discussing WCK in south east Asia, and I ask them to shows their picture collection of 60, 70, 80, 90 and present day. That tells the story of the lineage.

Wonderful. They can be a great preservation tool, in this day and age it is so easy to preserve such stories. I hope that many families have followed this method, not just in WCK but in other arts.

[Hendrik]

Wonderful. They can be a great preservation tool, in this day and age it is so easy to preserve such stories. I hope that many families have followed this method, not just in WCK but in other arts.

I put some utube and classical writing out so that the next generation has some data points if they decide to do reserch.

[Runlikehell]

I put some utube and classical writing out so that the next generation has some data points if they decide to do reserch.

Great that you do that, it also gives us on the board more insight into your lineage, WCK practices and methods.

I fear we have derailed this thread, but kept it along similar lines.

[Hendrik]

Great that you do that, it also gives us on the board more insight into your lineage, WCK practices and methods.

I fear we have derailed this thread, but kept it along similar lines.

True. Hahaha. Better get back focus!