H.Cheung's WC Mind

[CFT]

Driving a car is one of the most complex mechanical and mental activities that one is likely to encounter in every day life.

But when I first started learning to drive at 17, I was actually behind the wheel in the very first lesson and driving to a busy part of London (the 'West End").

I was of course surprised at the time that I wasn't even given an overview of the car and controls, all the theory, etc.

Now I look back and think that it is a perfectly fine approach to teaching and learning.

It should never be either/or with regard to learning and sparring. They should go hand in hand. You need the pressure from sparring to test your body, mind and spirit. Skill cannot emerge in a vacuum.

[Kenshiro]

Driving a car is one of the most complex mechanical and mental activities that one is likely to encounter in every day life.

But when I first started learning to drive at 17, I was actually behind the wheel in the very first lesson and driving to a busy part of London (the 'West End").

I was of course surprised at the time that I wasn't even given an overview of the car and controls, all the theory, etc.

Now I look back and think that it is a perfectly fine approach to teaching and learning.

The difference is at the age of 17, you might have had many years of careful, and not so much so, observation of the art of driving, compared to the 10 year old in my analogy. With a careful, calculating brain, and a body developed to a sufficient point to handle the vehicle with the potential ease of that of a fully accustomed adult. You "grew" into it, or have a body capable of handling that vehicle's various "pressure" requirements.

With regards to driving a car, it might be a perfectly fine approach to teaching and learning. With regards to fighting, injuries suffered take time away from the practioner. This includes time to heal, time to train. Wing Chun seems to be a very internal style, lots of inner workings going on in there, and biomechanics that may or may not really have to be learned, but clarified. A lot of throwing a punch seems instinctive, but knowing how to throw a punch as everyone does and how it should be in Wing Chun, and being able to throw one as everyone should and as it should be in Wing Chun, are clearly not.

To me, anyway.

Describing for instance to my peers in the service why I punch with the bottom three knuckles, or more specificially perhaps the sun fist, when I had only just begun training, is challenging, but I like a challenge. The wrist for one feels more sturdy, when intent is to deliver with the middle of the bottom three (for now, that is sort of an "unadjusted" facet I came to a logical conclusion to based on other sources as well as hitting things). When I use "perfect pushups," if I try to focus on doing pushups with the first two knuckles as a boxer would, my wrist cannot support my weight without tensing heavily, not to mention it is difficult to maintain control on the perfect pushup, especially with both hands. Injury feels more likely a possibility as if I were to slip at time or loose that tension at any time (as is likely to happen when tensing muscles, you must untense after a while), at which point I would slip anyway and likely hurt my hand or my wrist.

It only serves to justify why boxers wrap their wrists like concrete before a fight, and the idea of "tensing" your arms before impact to minimize injury upon said impact is to provide protection. Unfortunately then the matter seems to be one of "timing." If you time wrong and tense at the wrong time you not only loose power from improper alignment but you risk injury. If you tense moments before impact you now slow the punch down, at which point you loose power delivered from the body's snap. Additionally, with all this tensing and untensing as the body twists and turns, fatigue builds up, hence the rounds in the ring. Without the breakup, fatigue takes away the snapping and it becomes a slop fest.

I guess looking at that you can argue that western boxing is very much an internal style too.

Conversely, doing the "perfect pushup" the proper way, you see that your hand supports your weight more in alignment with how the sun fist is delivered, and you can even do this with a somewhat more relaxed grip. Arguably, you'd last longer or at least not get as tired. Further your punches remain faster and so long as the rest of the cogs of the machine are good to go, you retain power. Of course to deliver you need that timing and strategy to get in the position, and you need to "see" when to get in.

Some people got the idea, some didn't. The point is that is just a sort of... I do not know the word. Something along the lines of ergonomics, fitting the workplace to the worker, but in this case fitting our every day stuff, to the art?? There is more to throwing the punch but I feel I don't have to explain I sorta did in the previous posts and I'm sure we all here know how it should be done.

It should never be either/or with regard to learning and sparring. They should go hand in hand. You need the pressure from sparring to test your body, mind and spirit. Skill cannot emerge in a vacuum.

There's merit to that argument ... the question is when you have learned enough of the system to be able to spar. Most people are regarded as roadworthy after a few months of driving instruction. How long would you say you have to go before you start trying your WC skills out against a resisting opponent?

I know enough about WC to know I cannot and must not spar with it yet. I remember a former training partner who came to class, dismissed SLT as being something that "you can do 'till you're blue in the face, but it won't help you fight," and effectively all he did when he sparred the bigger guys in the class was hold his hands up but walked circular from his target like perhaps a Ba Gua stylist would do, crossing his legs, standing a few points away from totally upright, unsunken. Cross-Stepping.
It almost looked like Ba Gua if I didn't know better.

I know that chi-sao is supposed to help you move with the structures and be fluid, flowing, able to move and attack without compromising either yourself or your balance. It is supposed to help you with the pressure from multiple angles, and presumes pressure coming from an opponent that also attacks along the line, for what I can guess to be only one reason, but I already said this above.

I know SLT works more than just brainwashing your elbows to maintain positive shapes, and know it is supposed to work in a special kind of focus ahead and with your peripherials.--among many other things.

I know that some people understand a punch must hit "mid range," and they pull their punches way before it gets to that range, even if the opponent was not close enough for them to have hit in the first place, and I further know that this takes away the true intent of the fists if they were properly aligned with the appropriate distances, structures, and focus. Intent seems to matter a lot with that punch. It's the difference between a tap and a shock.

I know that Wong Shun Leung reportedly trained 4 to 6 hours a day for 6 months straight before taking it to the streets. I also know that reportedly he boxed before he took Wing Chun, so therefore he was somewhat exposed to the rigors of sparring before hand, but found something to appreciate in Wing Chun and fully committed to the program.

There is a danger in "parroting" information like a mindless robot, and "knowing" the information, discovering it for yourself or truly understanding why, and only after serious exhaustion of your faculties then do you approach the observant teacher for guidance towards your own attainment of that understanding.

I further know that while executing, I must be relaxed, give nothing away that compromises my balance, while at the same time retaining sufficient control to project power from the center. That is quite a bit of control, and in a way the pressure building sensitivity drills prepare your structures to deal with increased pressures of actual fighting, without just getting in there and getting hurt and having to delay your training to recover, or just quit altogether.

These concepts just cannot be learned without dilligent practice in a few months. Unfortunately that is exactly what a lot of people are guilty of, and hence they quit the system and exclaim that it does not work, when they should consider why it did not work for them, if people before them made it work, in the street and the ring.

These are just my own opinions, and many would probably call it all just b.s. But these are my own opinions and observations.

---
Anyway, that is a lot of knowing.
Just because "I" know it does not mean my body does.

To each his own though, I fully agree though that upon full understanding or shall I say "attainment" of the system, upon you and the body fully "getting it," you should go out there and spar, but there has to be some sort of mutual understanding as to the goals of the exercise and the limitations upon both parties as you just cannot go about "kick-stomping" people's knees in a friendly sparring session. To me that just feels more like a real fight. Also, the sense of continuity is different, because doing that "potentially" can end one, but without sufficient drive, focus, power, whatever there's no way to tell the effectiveness.

Still, I like speaking of that group that went to Thailand, because they defied most of what I said, if I understood the episode regarding Lui Ming Fai. I think they sparred daily. NTC says they did a lot of training that seems possibly much more demanding than most other schools. It seems they did many many hours of training a day. For competitive fighting in the ring, effectively to build warriors. Maybe there's a biography or something I should read on this because it is really something.

It somewhat tells me you can't dive in too early with sparring.
Perhaps the difference then from my classmate with the 1950's fighters is consistent guidance.

[anerlich]

It should never be either/or with regard to learning and sparring. They should go hand in hand. You need the pressure from sparring to test your body, mind and spirit. Skill cannot emerge in a vacuum.

I agree 100%.

if I try to focus on doing pushups with the first two knuckles as a boxer would,

Not all boxers do this. Some use vertical fists, some punch through the bottom three knuckles.

I guess looking at that you can argue that western boxing is very much an internal style too.

For what purpose? Most boxers would regard such discussion as mental masturbation.

There is a danger in "parroting" information like a mindless robot, and "knowing" the information, discovering it for yourself or truly understanding why, and only after serious exhaustion of your faculties then do you approach the observant teacher for guidance towards your own attainment of that understanding.

There is also danger in making generalizations about boxing or other styles and setting them up as straw men in your own mind, analyzing everything to the nth degree ... and dare I say, convincing yourself you are way smarter than all your workmates.

as you just cannot go about "kick-stomping" people's knees in a friendly sparring session.

Well, duh, no one is suggesting that. There are drills and a progressive process. Even the boxers you seem keen to differentiate yourself from do not spend every session bashing the bejesus out of each other.

[Kenshiro]

Not all boxers do this. Some use vertical fists, some punch through the bottom three knuckles.

For what purpose? Most boxers would regard such discussion as mental masturbation.

There is also danger in making generalizations about boxing or other styles and setting them up as straw men in your own mind, analyzing everything to the nth degree ... and dare I say, convincing yourself you are way smarter than all your workmates.

Well, duh, no one is suggesting that. There are drills and a progressive process. Even the boxers you seem keen to differentiate yourself from do not spend every session bashing the bejesus out of each other.

I somehow feel that we are getting off on the wrong foot.
I am generalizing nothing. While I am writing a lot of words on here, honestly to demonstrate in person it's a rather simple matter as I'm sure you'd agree. A lot of stuff I do in person with those around me to show what I know of the system works, where many of them write it off because if it did work, people would be using it, people they imply (and I infer) in the UFC.

Regarding the analyzing of everything, wouldn't you say you have to regarding the system's postures in order to understand how to apply it?

I am aware that Jack Dempsey as an example, advocated punching with the bottom three knuckles, and wrote a book about his "power-line." Not many boxers here at work follow this philosophy.

I do not differentiate from myself and boxers. Rather they, here, at my work space, differentiate from me, and I reciprocate likewise. Further, I am dealing with MMA guys or amateur boxer types that are built like supermen, many of them in my command are Navy Seal drop outs or Navy Diver hopefulls. What drew me to this system in the first place was curiosity at Bruce Lee's reported power in his punching. As I stated once before, I took boxing for a few, as well as some MMA thai kickboxing. Hardly good at it but I gave it my all and they even said I had alright delivery.

Further, to take something basically alien like WC and apply it against other systems requires this "progressive" stuff to avoid getting hurt, and learning nothing.

Regarding the kick stomping thing, my point applies to other techniques as well not just that. Intent is everything in the system from what I gather. If you don't follow through like in fencing where it's obvious you got the other guy even with all the protective gear you end up trading blows. My teacher says you can't expect to avoid getting hit, but the point is to drive through the center and if they do hit you there's nothing there if they get through.

Have I convinced myself that I am smarter than my workmates?
Dunno, maybe.

I tried to show a buddy who "self-taught" himself Wing Chun some differences from actually learning from a teacher vs learning from movies and youtube videos. His arms were tense beyond belief. Didn't really understand chi-sao so I had him simulate a boxer's guard, whatever he wanted, and for the sake of the chi-sao thing told him to throw two punches and shot in and applied the whole forward pressure thing with the stance and footwork. For a brief moment he had no idea what I was doing, while I was focused on staying in and maintaining what I had going.

So he had his fists up, and my arms were I guess in a sort of outside/outside posture, and I told him to go for any punch to beat what I was doing.

I expected some sort of "driving through" motion, clearing the way of my hands and blasting through. He opted for a retracting, raising hand to go for a hook.

So my elbow shot through and I pulled it before it nailed him in the neck, and it happened in the span of time he was retracting for the hook to both clear my hands as well as perhaps to start it up.

In the spirit of it, that's what my teacher I guess wants of us.
However I believe I messed up by actually "thinking" he was going to do some sort of "Wing Chun" thing to regain control and bypass my hands and blast through. I figured I'd "Jut" or whatever like in Dan Chi Sao. My "elbow" went forward, I believe it should've been my hand.

Either way the action stunned him and he stopped his hook, as I had actually nailed his neck but pulled it instead of driving through.

He snuck in some sort of one-inch punch on me earlier and his delivery was pretty fast for the hook as well he wasn't pulling anything back.

While the above was a somewhat typical example of a "punch this way, and I'll block it this way type of thing," I gave him the freedom to do whatever punch he wanted, but within reason, as I said before, I do not know the whole system yet. My arms are loose enough but I'm still stiff most everywhere else. I get struck, "yet I move," as another instructor of mine says.

Would I "learn" anything if I just let him do whatever, and I had to work to get in there and learn to "apply" the technique as I go?
The idea is to learn the whole thing, then adapt it to others as you spar. My sifu says you are trying to learn a skill. If the whole thing is "progressive," you can learn to deal with the others, but first you must acquire whatever "skill" it is they're trying to convey.

That makes sense.
How many people show up at the class and begin chain punching, and do it right?
Not many. They pop their elbows, focus in the fists instead of the elbows, their shoulders are "floaty," and they don't "sink." Often they aren't balanced and lean forward. They get exhausted fast.
Some people show up, conditioned, and do not get tired, but then again they're not snapping their punches out either. It's more of a controlled, slow speed, not fully extended (and therefore the intent isn't there) exercise.

Ultimately its just an element of the whole "way" you punch with it.

So at this Kuwait Naval Base in the boathouse I pound a few dents into the aluminum wall, knuckles about a foot away, no retraction. 8 inches, no retraction. Working my way down to just the fingers length.

I'm using all the elements outlined in previous posts to do all that.
It is impossible without
-the focus or intent from snapping your hand out as if it were full extension, when you're in that ideal close range.
-correct driving snapping, hip + elbow driven structure as outlined in my second post.

I try again with the punching, at maximum extension. What happens? I knock myself off balance. Even when I earnestly attempt to maintain it. The stance is not designed to do that. If you do, it requires muscle to prevent the shock away from the wall. Further, I leave no dents in the wall.

That signals loss of power at that range.

Is there anything wrong with testing out the elements of the system in isolation to understand the mechanics of it? Is it wrong, to have focused "labs" with a resisting human opponent to get the "hang" of it? Is there anything "wrong" with the whole "baby steps" idea, or "walk before you run" approach to Wing Chun? It seems you advocate just jumping in with both feet.

So here is the questions asked of me... someone who's only done this a year, and asked for opinions on Robert Chu's article, as well as for help or clarification on what I know.

-The question is how long do you train before you can spar?
I could only give observations and opinions.

Then a statement
-hand in hand learning and sparring are good to go, skill cannot emerge in a vacuum.
The system teaches you a "skill," it does not emerge in a vacuum. This much I understand even within my limits. It is this skill, that you bring to the table to acquire another skill, to spar and to fight. "I" know this much, even if most of my body does not.

So those are questions asked of me, or statements/answers to stuff I've said or insinuated. Here are a few of my own...

-A question is how do you "force" yourself to relax under pressure?
-If you use wing chun at all, do you fight force with force? Or do you flow with it?
-If a technique does not work for you, it must not work at all correct? Have you ever stated such about any aspect of this system? Why?
-Are there any aspects of the system you believe do not work in application, period? If so why?
-The thread's initial post was about Robert Chu's Article. Have you read it? Do you have any comments?

A lot of people I talk to that "box," cringe at the idea of attacking when the other guy does.

I enjoy a good argument, and while I am getting maybe we might not much like each other hopefully you enjoy this argument too. Let's just agree to keep it civil please.

If I fail to, let me know.

T.Bowman

[anerlich]

I somehow feel that we are getting off on the wrong foot.

Indeed.

FRAT, but:

-A question is how do you "force" yourself to relax under pressure?

You acclimatise yourself to the pressure through incremental exposure. Geoff Thompson among others has a good deal of excellent advice on the subject in his books. "Fear - The Friend of Exceptional People", etc.

-If you use wing chun at all, do you fight force with force? Or do you flow with it?

Ideally, you flow with it and do not fight force with force. In reality, you may occasionally (or frequently) fail to live up to the ideal and may have to react with lesser efficiency and more force) to avoid damage. Better IMO to be lampooned as inefficient by various internet pundits on this forum than have "that guy flowed really well until the other guy smashed him" said instead.

-If a technique does not work for you, it must not work at all correct? Have you ever stated such about any aspect of this system? Why?

No and no (well, maybe a couple of times, but I was lying. Really)

If I answer all these questions correctly, what do I win?

-Are there any aspects of the system you believe do not work in application, period? If so why?

TWC works well in the aspects of fighting for which it was designed. It is not suited to clinch fighting or ground fighting IMO. Most of the problems are not with the system but the way some people train to use it, allegedly for defence. Some parts of it suit some people better than others, sme teachers' approaches suit some students better than others. "Can you do it?", says Hawkins. Very few, if any, can do all of it all the time.

-The thread's initial post was about Robert Chu's Article. Have you read it? Do you have any comments?

Yes. It gives a good insight into Hawkins Cheung and his approach to Wing Chun. Should it be a new Sutra, extra book in the New Testament or addition to the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus? No.

He's bang on about needing to develop visual as well as contact sensitivity and the overreliance on the latter by some.

I notice the parts about SLT teaching the student not to think too much, and:

"Wing chun is a trap, too, because many practitioners get hung up thinking wing chun is the only way to fight".

A lot of people I talk to that "box," cringe at the idea of attacking when the other guy does.

You need to talk to a few more boxers - counterpunching is a highly esteemed and much practised boxing skill.

I enjoy a good argument, and while I am getting maybe we might not much like each other hopefully you enjoy this argument too. Let's just agree to keep it civil please.

This is an informal forum of frank exchanges. I have no interest in being counselled on how I should behave by a new poster, thanks all the same. If you expect genteel academic discussion between faux Zen masters in a virtual Shaolin Temple with background Pan pipes playing and incense burning 24/7, you are definitely in the wrong place.

[rachard1583]

I always belive that certain techniques will feel more natural to someone than others will. This is again due to differences in body type, age, size, etc.


russian martial arts

[k gledhill]

I always belive that certain techniques will feel more natural to someone than others will. This is again due to differences in body type, age, size, etc.


russian martial arts

I trained my VT at a open gym with 'Systema' training going on, very cool stuff. One guy was Spetnaz, showing escapes from duct taped wrists. He would use his belt to defend against knife attacks like a bar between two hands holding the belt tight, then gain rear positions to choke out students with the belt ...while they stood up, they would fall unconscious in seconds...he would catch them as they fell.

[Kenshiro]

"Wing chun is a trap, too, because many practitioners get hung up thinking wing chun is the only way to fight".

You took what Mr. Cheung said out of context from its location. Either your reading comprehension is poor, or you chose to see what you wanted to see. Coming from your signature, it is hardly surprising that this sentence caught your attention.

I have no interest in being counselled on how I should behave by a new poster, thanks all the same.

Further, your veiled insults are duly noted. I as well have no interest in being counselled by someone whose knowledge is possibly based on either arrogance or willful ignorance, or even a combination of the two.

T.Bowman

[anerlich]

I mistook your lectures for a discussion for a while there.

I can't recommend your class to anyone else - a wholly unsatisfactory grasp of the subject matter, an overly verbose and turgid delivery, sounds like the lecturer enjoys the sound of his own voice a little too much.

Blather away, cultivate your fanboys, I'm gone.