Fencing

[Ironwind]

The Rabbt hole gets deeper. Way deeper.
It looks like the european world had some decent fighting systems.They were just slow.

[Ironwind]

Except for with the lighter weapons.

[SevenStar]

savate, several styles of grappling, espada y daga, original pankration... they have several viable MA - it's not restricted to only asia.

[Ironwind]

True but europe was the one place I thought wouldn't have as much Ma as another place. Like Africa has MA for some tribes with crucial training. I really didn't know it woulld get that deep in europe having it's own MA that originated there, I think that's serious.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by Vash
Not sure where I got this link, but I'm assuming it was from Apoweyn somewhere. But, here you go. I'm not overly interested in fencing, but that is a darn good read.

Oh, ttt.

I remember seeing this kind of swordplay on an episode of "Highlander". (Man I miss that show!) Also this "walking along the circle" stuff reminds me of the Bagua style seen on "Black Sash". (I miss that show too).

Regards,

John M. Drake

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

My son and i both fence (foils).. footwork is excellent, but timing, awareness, and range are the most beneficial for me relative to MA/JKD.. the speed of a well handled blade and the difficulty in observing the foil's thin sillouette forces you to read the opponent's body movements to anticipate the attack strategy.. fakes, draws and deceptions are fundamental.. The footwork really enhances your ability to advance or retreat while maintaining optimum balance.. occasionally, we "free-play".. no linear confinement and excruciatingly stinging slashes hone your awareness factor.. it's a good distraction from the normal training routine..

Be well..

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Ironwind
True but europe was the one place I thought wouldn't have as much Ma as another place. Like Africa has MA for some tribes with crucial training. I really didn't know it woulld get that deep in europe having it's own MA that originated there, I think that's serious.

There are piles of European "martial arts." In addition to the ones Sevenstar mentioned, you've got different methods for everything from the quarterstaff to wrestling and pugilism. Backhold wrestling. Stickfighting. La canne. The list is pretty daunting.

[KenWingJitsu]

I fenced in college and for a couple of years after.

The footwork is the reason to fence. Nothing closes the gap faster than fencing footwork, even when it seems you're too far away.

The second thing is the emphasis on the stop hit (interception). When you take the foil ou of your hands, you CAN do the same thing with your lead hand (or foot), enabling you to score first just about everytime.

[GeneChing]

...is that it has more mythology than kung fu even. Seriously. I worked professionally in fencing for a half decade - teaching and working as an armourer at American Fencer's Supply. I think when you start earning your living in something like fencing or martial arts, you quickly learn to cut through the bs because frankly, there's not much money in this kind of work and bs can be costly. So you get a very real economical sense of how much bs there is. You spend your time cutting, cutting, cutting, just to make rent money.

But enough about my issues back OT. I think fencing holds a lot of martial artists. First, the sword combat. Fencing uses steel and there's something about the 'sentiment du fer' the feel of the steel, that you just don't get in kendo or CMA. Second, it's the notion that you don't have to be very powerful using a sharp. You just need to be fast and accurate. The sharpness does the work, if you know how to apply it. These points are technical, though, and I think where Lee really shined in his sutdy of fencing was theoretical. Fencing theory (except the aforementioned Spanish school ) has the most elegant theory of combat I have ever studied. It's western - scientific and mathematical - like a computer program. It doesn't always apply to 'real' combat because it exists only in the realm of the specific rules of western sword duelling, but within that realm, it is suupreme. Unfortunately, the only people who really study fencing theory are fencing masters and the occasional theory geeks. Many instructors aren't even certified - unlike MA, there is one nationally recognized governing body for fencing masters so if you aren't certified through that, you aren't 'real'. There are some smaller bodies that do certification and their validity is contestable. Anyway, fencing theory is brilliant, so if you explore fencing, make sure to study the theory.

[Vash]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Fencing theory (except the aforementioned Spanish school )

What's wrong with the Spanish school?

[GeneChing]

The Spanish school went the way of the brontosaurus a few centuries ago. They haven't been able to produce any fencers of note since the days of the long rapier. There are a few revivalists, like Martinez, but many question their lineage and authenticity (personally, I have no real opinion on Martinez since he came out after I left the fencing world). Modern fencing has been dominated by the French, Italians, Russians and Hungarians for a long time now.

The one thing I will say in favor of the Spanish school is that it had some great art - beautiful plates of their mystic circles - but as a modern study, it's obsolete.

[Vash]

Interesting. I have zero knowledge of fencing, so forgive me if this is a laymen's question . . . why is it obsolete? Rule changes, et al?

[GeneChing]

Too **** big, I'd guess. The standard notion of the demise of the Spanish school was that it became too theoretical. It was based mainly on arcane patterns of footwork apparently, what became known as mystic circles. Fencers would practice these footwork patterns with arm extended, drilling over and over again. From a CMA perspective, it makes a lot of sense, actually. And it did produce some fantasitc fencers centuries ago. But then, it got weighed down with theory to the point that astrological factors were calculated into duelling - sort of akin to consulting feng shui before battle (what Sun Tzu opposed some 2000+ years ago). Eventually the spanish school became too cumbersome. Most consider it lost. Revivalists are looked on with the same skepticism that we might look on someone who claims to have 'rediscovered' wing chun skirt fighting techniques.

I'd add that the weapon changed in the last century. As steel became stronger and more flexible, they moved to lighter weapons. Contrary to the myth, lighter and faster is better, especially with a sharp. You don't need power with a sharp - the sharp does all the work. You just need speed and accuracy. The Spanish school reigne with people were still using long rapier - and I do mean long, some up to 44+ inches.

FWIW, fencing is an Olympic sport and has been since it's inception. This means that the masters, judges and competitors are strictly certified and regulated on an international level. There are some wayward groups, sort of SCA types, who try to do their own thing like historical fencing, but even though some of them have done some great research, they haven't been able to make the slightest mark on the fencing world. As a weak metaphor, take boxing for example. A century ago, we boxed differently (see the Boxing article in our e-zine). While these ancient schools of boxing are interesting from a historic standpoint, you don't see Lennox Lewis adopt a classical guard position. Now, you can argue that in bare-knuckle days, the classic guard was more useful, just like you can argue in long rapier days, the Sapnish school was more useful. but you can aruge that until you're blue in the face - it won't do crap for you in today's ring (or today's fencing strip).

What's more, today's fencing is electrified, meaning that the weapons are rigged with electronic detectors to reveal unquestionably when a palpable hit has been scored. Now we can register hits that were too fast for the human eye, but would have produced blood on the field of play. That has changed the game significantly. Some argue that we've lost classical form (they do that 'til they're blue in the face too).

[Vash]

Very interesting.

Thanks for the info.

[Ironwind]

Very intresting. By any chance Gene would that same medafore work with practicing forms and katas over and over until you lose all originality in battle.