Wude: Anywhere to be found?

[Water-quan]

People love the idea that wu de means either 1. A self righteous right to judge other people over not having wu de - quite a circular argument. Or 2. Not criticising. Actually, the primarily important aspects of wu de refer to yourself - your own honesty, commitment, and belief in yourself over when it's better to remain quiet, and when it's important to speak out.

I notice the original intent of this thread seems to be 'Hey wu de means not criticising anyone' - it doesn't mean that at all; quite the opposite: it means knowing when to criticise.

[pazman]

Wude is kind of a modern fiction.

Wude as it existed long ago has less to do with being a good guy and more to do with doing your job on the battlefield: being a vicious killer with no remorse. We don't live in those times, and I hope nobody on this forum is trying to develop that kind of wude.

Wude as you see being promulgated by many TCMA masters today was a creation of gongfu masters just over a century ago in an attempt to add legitimacy to their place in society. You can see the same sort of stuff going on in Japan during the Edo period. The samurai class, rising to power, were no longer warriors and had to struggle to adapt to their new roles as bureaucrats. Thus, you can read in books all sorts of nonsense about the Samurai code. The Hagakure is a fun read, with many "laugh out loud" moments.

A lot of what we understand in the West as wude most likely stems from Jigoro Kano's development of Judo and his impact on Japanese martial arts. Chinese martial arts never really had a single innovator like Kano. Most traditional Chinese martial artists of old were never interested in promoting their skills as a physical education, or modernizing, adapting, and improving their skills. Likewise, sharing your art to improve the human condition or honestly criticizing yourself or others was not and is not at the heart of Chinese martial arts.

Minghequan, what is YOUR working definition of wude?

[David Jamieson]

those who use it use it.
No one is obligated to use it because they are here and no one is obligated to use it with
anyone who refuses to reciprocate.

[bawang]

wude is applied to warfare

[SPJ]

if you are a sheep, you are a sheep.

if you are a wolf, you are a wolf

guess what they both flock or gather together as a group

such as sheep herd

and wolf pack

--

there is wu de among sheep herds

there is wu de among wolf pack

--

guess what there is no wude between the sheep and wolf

one is prey; the other is predator

one is food; the other is eater

--

one may ask and wonder

where is the wu de for sheep and wolf

--

none.

---

[David Jamieson]

if you are a sheep, you are a sheep.

if you are a wolf, you are a wolf

guess what they both flock or gather together as a group

such as sheep herd

and wolf pack

--

there is wu de among sheep herds

there is wu de among wolf pack

--

guess what there is no wude between the sheep and wolf

one is prey; the other is predator

one is food; the other is eater

--

one may ask and wonder

where is the wu de for sheep and wolf

--

none.

---

However, wolf and sheep both are incapable of abstract thought and exist with primordial awareness only.

wude is for humans only. we are all humans.
some may act like wolves and others may act like sheep, but they are all human and they all have potential to behave like one o the other and STILL possess wude towards each other.

[SimonM]

However, wolf and sheep both are incapable of abstract thought.

Are you sure? Wolves employ strategy when hunting deer, establishing traps and manipulating herding strategies.

Do you really know what thoughts wolves have?

[SPJ]

post away what you like to share

stop wasting time to preach to wolf how not to eat a sheep.

--

wolf is only interested in how to kill and how to eat

--

actually there is wu de sort of

kill only what you eat

b/c kill too many no food tommorrow

there is eco balance

--

again wu de is among something similar or equal power

--

there is a different dependent balance if one is weak, the other is strong.

---

1 so where is wu de?

when you are strong and in dealing with the weak

2 when you are weak; may you ask for wu de from the strong?

probably not

--

[bawang]

the subject of wude in america has the taint of japanese budo.

japanese separate combat and spiritual health aspects into bujutsu and budo. so when people hear about martial morality they think its some sort of "spiritual path".


chinese martial art do not separate personal spiritual journey and war. war is the path to enlightenment.


wu de is a set of beliefs and codes that try to justify war. martial morality = morality in killing