Why is Internal training fail?

[Hendrik]

Let's discuss in a professional way.


Believe it or not, Terence has raised some excellent points of TCMA Internal Training.
and I do agree with some of the facts eventhough I know IMA is as real as gold.


So, why is Internal training fail to deliver?

anyone like to start?

[t_niehoff]

Or, let's rephrase the question: Why is there no good evidence that internal training works?

Which raises the following question: why do people believe in things absent good evidence?

[sanjuro_ronin]

More often than not because it is NOT trained VS a well trained fighter that is tyring to kick the ass of the internal stylist.
Far too often IMA tend to do passive training in their "own" little world.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I knew a Qigong guy who once articulated a simple but beautiful truth:

"If you train Qigong through Martial arts, your Qigong will have a martial flavor; if you train through medicine, your Qigong will have a healing flavor. The martial flavor is not very good for healing, and the healing flavor not very good for martial arts." - Klotz Kwan


There is an inverse implication here; if you practice medicine with martial Qigong, your medicine won't be very effective. Likewise, if you practice martial arts with medical Qigong, your martial skills will not develop. A summary of both could be "Make your training relevant" or some such concept.

When we look at WHO, for the most part, is doing internal martial arts, we see a large cross-section of people who are in it primarily for health reasons. So right off the bat, we have a bunch of internal stylists who aren't even all that concerned with the martial aspect of their art. Sometimes, it may be because a teacher somewhere in the lineage was a healer more than a fighter. Other times, it may be the teacher trying to mold his classes according the "health" market (this scenario encompasses both legit teachers who are simply fine tuning their curriculum a la Yang Cheng Fu, and charlatans wanting to cashi in on a trend.) And other times, it's simply the motivation of the student.

Of course, there are internal stylists who can apply their martial art. I've met 3 who can apply those skills effectively in full contact situations. Their classes include "Martial Qigong" as opposed to "Medical Qigong," and the students who train with them are able to use their martial art.

When it comes to seeing internal Martial arts doing well in the ring, it's happened before (albeit in 1928.) So the idea that "internal artists don't fight because that's not what the internal arts are about" is false. What I think really happened is that the internal arts attracted non-fighters for a generation or two, turning particular lineages into nothing more than exercise and medical Qigong. That said, there are lineages which maintain a martial relevance, and those schools are either specialty-training current MMAists, training their own fighters, or are on their way to doing so.

[chusauli]

The martial arts Tai Ji, Xing Yi and Ba Gua are great for mechanics. Having studied Tai Ji (Yang and Sun), Xing Yi (Hebei and Shanxi), and Ba Gua (Sun, Liang, Yin Fu) - I do think they are valid martial arts and very realistic in application.

But the problem is many don't train realistically.

My senior Chan Bong was exceptional at push hands (Tui Shou/Rou Shou) skill, and I trained that with him for almost every weekend for about 2 - 3 years. We pushed freestyle and hard - not soft and cooperative like beginning Tai Ji. We also moved steps, forward, backwards, laterally like Ba Gua. We rarely did forms, but had the forms come out spontaneously in push hands, so we could see how the forms were derived and a part of the body when pressed. I highly recommend this training - then you can develop the quintessence of Tai Ji's 13 keywords, Xing Yi's 5 elements and 12 animals, and Ba Gua's San Shi and 8 palms.

Sparring was also important to develop how to use it.

Not everyone wants to get in a ring. Most people just want exercise and some basic self defense.

IMO, Xing Yi people will be the best and can actually do what they train. Ba Gua is a bit more difficult. In real Tai Ji training, there is very heavy push hands also.

[Hendrik]

To be real honest,

Even I practive IMA, I dont buy your reason at all.

Because it is ambiguity and also it cant be quantify.
when things cannot be quantify means it might not be implementable, repeatable, or reproduce.

I knew a Qigong guy who once articulated a simple but beautiful truth:

"If you train Qigong through Martial arts, your Qigong will have a martial flavor; if you train through medicine, your Qigong will have a healing flavor. The martial flavor is not very good for healing, and the healing flavor not very good for martial arts." - Klotz Kwan


There is an inverse implication here; if you practice medicine with martial Qigong, your medicine won't be very effective. Likewise, if you practice martial arts with medical Qigong, your martial skills will not develop. A summary of both could be "Make your training relevant" or some such concept.

When we look at WHO, for the most part, is doing internal martial arts, we see a large cross-section of people who are in it primarily for health reasons. So right off the bat, we have a bunch of internal stylists who aren't even all that concerned with the martial aspect of their art. Sometimes, it may be because a teacher somewhere in the lineage was a healer more than a fighter. Other times, it may be the teacher trying to mold his classes according the "health" market (this scenario encompasses both legit teachers who are simply fine tuning their curriculum a la Yang Cheng Fu, and charlatans wanting to cashi in on a trend.) And other times, it's simply the motivation of the student.

Of course, there are internal stylists who can apply their martial art. I've met 3 who can apply those skills effectively in full contact situations. Their classes include "Martial Qigong" as opposed to "Medical Qigong," and the students who train with them are able to use their martial art.

When it comes to seeing internal Martial arts doing well in the ring, it's happened before (albeit in 1928.) So the idea that "internal artists don't fight because that's not what the internal arts are about" is false. What I think really happened is that the internal arts attracted non-fighters for a generation or two, turning particular lineages into nothing more than exercise and medical Qigong. That said, there are lineages which maintain a martial relevance, and those schools are either specialty-training current MMAists, training their own fighters, or are on their way to doing so.

[Hendrik]

It really bother me when I see some so called internal stylist cannot show and explain how to do basic Fajin. or talking theory one way but cant implement their stuffs.

Thus, if the basic Fajin cant be know and reproduce specifically at will with great precision. There is no IMA but name.

also, there are those using Qigong as a Mantra as the reason of everything. Where they really have no sign of they know even the basic.


I cannot blame Terence on his bias because in fact, how many dare to say they know what is the Basic FAJin practice which is accord to the IMA classical writting?


see, even if one knows how to Fajin, that doesnt say one's fajin is in a full and well develop state. and I dont expect that. but Fajin for sure is not punching or pushing with body and shaking for show business.


Fajin and Jie jin, issue force vectors and accept force vectors are two keys in Push Hand type of practice. WCK Chi sau is in the same catagory.

So, without knowing how to do Fajin and Jie Jin it is hopeless even to mention using the IMA one practice in fighting. it is just Hopeless and Fantasy of moving arms around, hitting around, or dance around which actually do nothing and improve nothing. using those to against mma or Kyokushin? those are joke.


just my 2 cents

[Hendrik]

More often than not because it is NOT trained VS a well trained fighter that is tyring to kick the ass of the internal stylist.
Far too often IMA tend to do passive training in their "own" little world.

This is a type of internal art

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLiHEkDRjS8

[sihing]

.......
Not everyone wants to get in a ring. Most people just want exercise and some basic self defense.....

The best part about your post was this sentence. Most do not want to be FIGHTERS, I for one include myself in that group. I practice WC because it is enjoyable, and the training system poses great interest for me, plus I like share it with others. I don't see too many other people here that are proclaiming to be fighters, so I don't understand T's obsession with people saying that is what they are?? Were here to discuss WC, it's concepts, prinicples, training curriculum and experiences with it all. I agree with T, in the fact that WC is a training system to teach you the things that WC teaches one, and that it in and of itself is not fighting, but sometimes fighting is not the point.

James

[Hendrik]

"If you train Qigong through Martial arts, your Qigong will have a martial flavor; if you train through medicine, your Qigong will have a healing flavor. The martial flavor is not very good for healing, and the healing flavor not very good for martial arts."

This is a misleading

What is the reason to support my words.

Simple, anyone who is practicing the real deal knows.

ENTER into the STATE of SILENCE is the FIRST STARTING STEP of Qigong. Yup before anything. ONe needs to enter. otherwise, it is going NO WHERE.

Now tell me, what is the FLAVOR of SILENCE?

[t_niehoff]

The best part about your post was this sentence. Most do not want to be FIGHTERS, I for one include myself in that group.

And this is sums up the problem -- people don't want to be fighters. Fine. So why in the hell are you training in a fighting method? That's like taking wrestling and saying that you don't want to grapple.

I practice WC because it is enjoyable, and the training system poses great interest for me, plus I like share it with others. I don't see too many other people here that are proclaiming to be fighters, so I don't understand T's obsession with people saying that is what they are??

Being a fighter doesn't mean you need to be a competive fighter or a streetfighter or whatever -- it means that you fight, that you DO the activity itself that you are training for. Boxers, wrestlers, BJJ, MT, etc. are fighters. It's like calling yourself a swimmer or a surfer or a bicyclist -- it means you are DOING THE ACTIVITY. You can do it in a gym, in a ring, on the mats, etc. but you're doing it.

If you are not doing the activity, what are you doing?

I don't care if people just want to do forms and drills like chi sao and not fight -- but my point is then you are very, very, very limited in your understanding, knowledge, and skill of WCK. Your understanding, knowledge, and skill beyond a superficial level come only from fighting. All you have otherwise is the outer shell, the superficial stuff. If you enjoy doing that and sharing that, fine. But recognize that's what you have.

Were here to discuss WC, it's concepts, prinicples, training curriculum and experiences with it all. I agree with T, in the fact that WC is a training system to teach you the things that WC teaches one, and that it in and of itself is not fighting, but sometimes fighting is not the point.

James

How can you understand ANYTHING in WCK without reference to fighting? It's all there as part of a fighting method. Otherwise it is fantasy.

[Hendrik]

I also dont buy the

Most do not want to be FIGHTERS

story which most people use as a reason.

There is a different between DO NOT WANT TO BE A FIGHTERS and DO NOT CAPABLE TO APPLY in COMBAT.



ONe biggest problem of IMA, I am speak on REAL DEAL IMA, is that it is an ART which needs REALIZATION.

An art similar to karate, MT, BJJ, OR MMA is a Process orientated art. While IMA is a Realization art. Thus, a process oriented art can be learn within a week in a seminal and minimum training to make it works in handling the general cover situation.

However, a Realization art needs atleast months to Realize what is going on in one's body. Even at that point, the people who walk the Realization art's path still have no clue on how to deal with general combat situation.

It takes years of deligent training with an experience IMA sifu before one Realized and AWARE the basic or knowing one's breathing, mind, body syncronization, and be able to issue force vectors (which is totally different then tensing up and strike type of punch, kicks...etc) then the world changes. suddently one sees one doesnt have to do what the typical way of punching and kicking but issuing force vectors... and only there and then one enter into the Door of Internal martial art. Before that, forget about it. it is not even MA.

if one got a good experience IMA sifu who is keen in combat application then one will progress very rapidly in combat application.



At that time, after the years, those who practice process oriented art mostly will have slow further progress because thier practice is now limited by thier physical after they almost fully uses their physical strength. after the first few years of rapid progress.
IE: a person will keep progress in thier skill until they reach Black belt. after that the progress will not be that much for most.

Thus, there is a nature characteristics different in the practice of these art.

and it is a fact that if one wants to learn how to fight and fast, go with the Process orientated art.

The realization art could bring one to advance when the Process orientated art hitting the celling. but that comes with a price of time. Thus, not too many will reach to even the entry level of the True internal TCMA.



not to mention, in general, major TCMA doesnt cover as complete as the Process Orientated art and infact is partial. Not to mention, most TCMA thinking it is IMA but in fact it is a Process art fantasying it become IMA which is impossible.


And do you think all those who does Taiji is IMA? nope. most of them are just exercising with relaxation or mind and body benifit.

how about WCK? WCK tried to become a PRocess Oriented art marketing on fast learning and good for fighting as "it was use in ANTI-Qing" but stuck because it is an IMA which needs the REalization cultivation.

Thus, WCK as a process oriented art will not go too far, however, it has lost the trace of IMA. the sign or WCK will not work this way is predictable with today's more and more importing of MMA...etc in to WCK.


So, why Do I go doing those research to identify the White Crane and Emei DNA in SLT? because one needs a direction to go back to the IMA. one can see what it is and then decide where one intent to evolve one's WCK. take the direction of process orientated or take the IMA that is fine with me, as soon as you are not stuck ---- thinking one thing and doing another thing and expecting some other thing.


Shao Lin this or that, Anit-Qing this or that type of his-story will do good in marketing, doesnt give the technological direction. that is forsue.



just some ideas.

[t_niehoff]

I also dont buy the story which most people use as a reason.

There is a different between DO NOT WANT TO BE A FIGHTERS and DO NOT CAPABLE TO APPLY in COMBAT.

You can't develop fighting skills by not fighting. You only develop a skill by doing the skill. Fighting is a complex skill, and you only develop it by doing it.

The only way to develop fighting skill is TO BE A FIGHTER. The only way to develop surfing skill is to be a surfer. The only way to develop swimming skill is to be a swimmer. The only way to develop bike riding skill is to be a cyclist. This is true for everything we do.

[Hendrik]

You can't develop fighting skills by not fighting. You only develop a skill by doing the skill. Fighting is a complex skill, and you only develop it by doing it.

The only way to develop fighting skill is TO BE A FIGHTER. The only way to develop surfing skill is to be a surfer. The only way to develop swimming skill is to be a swimmer. The only way to develop bike riding skill is to be a cyclist. This is true for everything we do.

Good reasoning however there are many ways to do it.

IE: one doesnt need to keeping killing others by nuke them to invent a nuke bomb.



IMA does practice fighting however it is in a different way with a different type of process technology.


IE: there are solar power, there are neuclear power. and solar power is not Neuclear power. both supplied energy but generated in a different way.

[t_niehoff]

Good reasoning however there are many ways to do it.

IE: one doesnt need to keeping killing others by nuke them to invent a nuke bomb.

There is evidence that the nuke bomb exists and what it can do. There is no such evidence for what you are talking about.

Internal/external are simply wrong-headed ways of looking at things. There is only body mechanics. There are optimum mechanics for doing anything. There is no such thing as an internal hip throw and external hip throw, there are only good (optimal) mechanics for doing a hip throw and poor (sub-optimal) mechanics for doing a hip throw. Every art that does the hip throw pretty much does it the same way.