Video: Hsing Yi Chuan (Xingyiquan) Form and Applications

[chrisfreel]

I never said it wasn't the "same mechanism" you dolt.. I said the example of the mechanism given by Lin in the original video is not as good/refined/skillful as the mechanism demonstrated by Pan in his clips.

And why is it that I am "defensive like a little child"? I make points. I clarify points and I ask for counterpoints. I don't metaphorically throw up my hands in despair and resort to calling other posters "childish". Look in the mirror.

Welcome to straw man territory, where you make up stuff the other person said to keep flapping your ignorant mouth. What a ****. I never said that you said it was a different mechanism...

You're defensive because you're you don't get it. If you were mature and simply making points, you'd have left long ago, after making them. You can disagree, but you'd rather argue the same thing over and over, even after 5 people tell you you're full of it. I called you childish because you are; you started with name calling from the start, never showed any evidence of skill on your own part (certainly not from what you wrote), and continue to post as though you have some great insight to share.

[tcphillips]

Anone, It's my contention that Suddenflower's XinYi video is in the top 1% of XinYI videos on You Tube. So either you are a member of some rarified cult that takes their XinYi to an unheard of level (and keeps it secret) or you are that troll we all had in High School BioChemistry who philosophically could not grant an excellent grade. Maybe you could dig up some superior videos, post them and enlighten us thereby. Or are you too busy grading papers when you should be practicing?

[chrisfreel]

Funny man..

I have neither the time nor inclination to scour "You Tube" or any other web locale for the gratification of you and your cronies. Unlike you internet warriors, I have a full life.

This is particularly amusing in light of your large number of posts on this thread.

But here are a few names off the top of my head (not necessarily all known for Xingyi) that I think have/had good body mechanics based on direct contact. It is by no means meant to be a complete list and I apologize to any of my past or present mentors and constituents that I may forget to mention here....

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

These men were/are all powerful in their own right and their IMA skills really cannot be disputed.

Yeah, but did you learn anything from any of them. Anyone can sign up for a class from someone famous. It doesn't mean you learned anything from them.

Btw, still waiting for some real insights on the video. Simply saying "It's my contention that Suddenflower's XinYi video is in the top 1% of XinYI videos on You Tube", is not really saying much at all now is it?

Well, it says more than you have. Then again, that isn't much of a standard, is it?

[suddenflower]

But here are a few names off the top of my head (not necessarily all known for Xingyi) that I think have/had good body mechanics based on direct contact. Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

These men were/are all powerful in their own right and their IMA skills really cannot be disputed.

What did you mean by "direct contact"? Have you met these guys in person?

[chrisfreel]

Hey, I'm on vacation.. what can I say?
But if you check my profile history, you'll see that I haven't been on here in quite a long time. Nor, do I post often considering the amount of time I have been a member.

But you have all the time in the world to post nonsense now, eh?

The issue is not whether or not I learned anything from them or any other (although I know you and your pals are trying to make it so). The issue is whether or not the person in the original video has good body connection.

I see structure in the original video, as well as the others of Master Pan. Just because you say you don't doesn't mean it isn't there. Further more, I see more than just structure.

Of course now you have brought in a subpoint as it were... are you trying to say the that the gentlemen I named above, meaning:

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

Do not have good body mechanics as you see it?

I didn't say that at all. It's called a straw man, it's one thing you ARE good at. The question is whether YOU have any skill, given how high and mighty you're talking. Of course others may have skill, but did you actually learn from them (not just a seminar), and did you actually pick anything up.

No, it's not... and that is exactly what I said. Now, please let's hear exactly why you, or any of you, in detail mind you, think that the Lin video is representative of good body mechanics. Because so far, none of you has said anything intelligent, save one... and he has been airing similar opinions to my own.

You only consider him intelligent because he agrees with you. As I said, I don't see the problem, and you haven't detailed anything, just that you didn't like it, that you don't see connection. Well, plenty of us do. Ever consider the problem might be on your end?

[swimgrad]

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

These men were/are all powerful in their own right and their IMA skills really cannot be disputed.

Actually, most of the names you mentioned are closely related to Lin's lineage. Zhang Jun Feng is the founder of YiZung School in Taipei. Hung Yi Hsiang is one of his top students. The lineages of the following names you mentioned can all be traced back to YiZung: Luo De Xiu, Su Dong Chen, Mike Patterson, Tim Cartmell. Pan is the top student of Zhang Jun Feng's wife and is currently the official leader of YiZung School although his own school is named YiZungYue, with Yue being his first name. And finally, Lin is one of Pan's top students.

Of course, I totally agree with you that all of them are excellent martial artists.

[Walter Joyce]

Did any of you think there may not be a problem here at all?

At first I thought that the person who asked Anone to post something backing up his opinion was on to something, but that side of the argument went downhill from there, with any number of personal attacks.

I have watched this thread from the beginning, and I have to say that Anone and cj have offered the more reasoned posts.

The other replies were obviously colored by emotion (mainly anger it seemed, or indignation) and have yet to explain why they think the clip and what was demonstrated on it was done properly. Of course they keep insisting it is proper.



Ever heard of agreeing to disagree?


Who really cares what others think if you are convinced you are studying with a good teacher? You don't have to convince the world of his greatness, if it is there it will shine through.

Whats wrong with letting a criticism stand without attacking the person who presented it? As I said above, even when attacked personally I think Anone responded clearly and rationally.

[grncastle]

Actually, most of the names you mentioned are closely related to Lin's lineage. Zhang Jun Feng is the founder of YiZung School in Taipei. Hung Yi Hsiang is one of his top students. The lineages of the following names you mentioned can all be traced back to YiZung: Luo De Xiu, Su Dong Chen, Mike Patterson, Tim Cartmell. Pan is the top student of Zhang Jun Feng's wife and is currently the official leader of YiZung School although his own school is named YiZungYue, with Yue being his first name. And finally, Lin is one of Pan's top students.

Hey Hey Hey!!! Anone, don't tell me that you are also a member of this big family!

[chrisfreel]

Did any of you think there may not be a problem here at all?

At first I thought that the person who asked Anone to post something backing up his opinion was on to something, but that side of the argument went downhill from there, with any number of personal attacks.

I have watched this thread from the beginning, and I have to say that Anone and cj have offered the more reasoned posts.

The other replies were obviously colored by emotion (mainly anger it seemed, or indignation) and have yet to explain why they think the clip and what was demonstrated on it was done properly. Of course they keep insisting it is proper.



Ever heard of agreeing to disagree?


Who really cares what others think if you are convinced you are studying with a good teacher? You don't have to convince the world of his greatness, if it is there it will shine through.

Whats wrong with letting a criticism stand without attacking the person who presented it? As I said above, even when attacked personally I think Anone responded clearly and rationally.

Walter,

It's probably a natural result of someone starting out with very insulting posts. When others responded in a reasonable way, he continued on with more of the same, even acting like a little kid, saying "you first" in several responses to polite posts. So... I think everyone else decided to use him as a virtual punching bag. It's not mature, but then that wasn't working, so why not have a little fun with him. I mean when you call someone else's stuff ****, then don't back up your own credentials, you're sorta asking for it, aren't you?

I kind of see him now as just wanting the last word. Someone else made reference to him being insulting to another instructor elsewhere, and while I have no idea if that's true, it wouldn't surprise me. Seems to fit the pattern.

I for one have felt the power from the instructor in the video first hand, and it's in a different category than others I've touched hands with, so I need no further convincing. But from looking at the video, I can see power traveling from the root to the hands, and I see a sound structure. Of course, there's different kinds of power used in different places. You can have a rigid structure, where the balls of the feet are connecting to the hands for directly issueing power, but you could also fire from the root and let the arms whip, for a different effect. Maybe some people are used to different mechanisms, or have different ideas of what the universe of good structure. But you can test those things in person, so if you know through direct experience, then you know.

Chris

[suddenflower]

And btw, "suddenflower", in response to your question; "What did you mean by "direct contact"? Have you met these guys in person?"... The answer would be yes, met, trained with and alongside, as well as numerous others. As I said, I have been involved extensively since before most of you whelps were wet behind the ears.

Who did you train with? Zhang Jun Feng? Hung Yi Hsiang? Luo De Xiu? Or else? The above are three different generations.

[chrisfreel]

Anone,

I find your contradictions interesting. First you won't talk about your lineage, then all of a sudden, you have this amazing lineage.

Then you have no time to post a video of yourself, or even search on YouTube, but you obviously have no time constraints for posting on this thread.

Care to explain the contradictions?

[chrisfreel]

The form movement is from the shoulders and has no link to the core.

Some of the applications are good, some bad and some outright ridiculous.

For your benefit, here's your first post. Is it not insulting? You didn't say "I don't see how the structure works", or "I don't understand how you generate power this way...". That would have been reasonable, and could provoke a discussion.

Sorry, I'm not sure I believe you studied with 3 generations of masters first hand. Hey, maybe I'm a Bagua expert, I studied under Dong Hai Chuan! My great art has kept me alive for 200 years!

If you were actually as skilled as you purport, you'd probably have something better to do with your time than trolling and saying the same thing over and over.

Nevertheless, I can say you don't see what you think should be there, others do. Would that be fair enough? Would you leave it at that? Or would you rather argue on indefinitely?

[grncastle]

But here are a few names off the top of my head (not necessarily all known for Xingyi) that I think have/had good body mechanics based on direct contact. It is by no means meant to be a complete list and I apologize to any of my past or present mentors and constituents that I may forget to mention here....

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

In the thread "Who's Who in Shen Lung Xingyi" of this Forum, you posted the following:

"I was a student of Hsu Hong Chi (Xu Hong Ji) in the 60's and 70's."

However, in the thread "Internal Arts in San Diego", Master Mike Patternson posted the following:

"To Anone,

Whoever you are, if you are connected to me or Master Xu Hong Ji (Hsu Hong Chi) in any way, you are causing all of us a loss of face by your actions. ... And it is my humble opinion that you should let go of your feelings of discontent and move on with your life as well."

You have posted a lot in this thread insisting that Lin's skill level does not deserve to be called a master. But, nowadays, how many "masters" can you find in U.S. whose skills are much inferior to Lin's? It seems to me that, in U.S., the line between "Master" and "Sifu" or "Teacher" is blurred and nobody really cares that much about it. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion but you don't have to keep saying it again and again. We have already got your point and you may "move on with your life."

[Walter Joyce]

Walter,

It's probably a natural result of someone starting out with very insulting posts. When others responded in a reasonable way, he continued on with more of the same, even acting like a little kid, saying "you first" in several responses to polite posts. So... I think everyone else decided to use him as a virtual punching bag. It's not mature, but then that wasn't working, so why not have a little fun with him. I mean when you call someone else's stuff ****, then don't back up your own credentials, you're sorta asking for it, aren't you?

I kind of see him now as just wanting the last word. Someone else made reference to him being insulting to another instructor elsewhere, and while I have no idea if that's true, it wouldn't surprise me. Seems to fit the pattern.

I for one have felt the power from the instructor in the video first hand, and it's in a different category than others I've touched hands with, so I need no further convincing. But from looking at the video, I can see power traveling from the root to the hands, and I see a sound structure. Of course, there's different kinds of power used in different places. You can have a rigid structure, where the balls of the feet are connecting to the hands for directly issueing power, but you could also fire from the root and let the arms whip, for a different effect. Maybe some people are used to different mechanisms, or have different ideas of what the universe of good structure. But you can test those things in person, so if you know through direct experience, then you know.

Chris

Chris,

Thank you for the response. I hesitated to post at all, and the points you make lead me to conclude that I don't know enough about the parties involved to continue, especially after reading what Mike Patterson posted.


Thanks again for the additional information,

Walter

[Walter Joyce]

Anone,

Can you address the comments made by Mike Patterson?

Regards,

WTJ