Video: Hsing Yi Chuan (Xingyiquan) Form and Applications

[swimgrad]

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;769176]I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;
QUOTE]

The movements in the video are executed based on the Pre-Heaven Power Method developed by Pan Yue. Master Pan's work is a revolutionary approach to internal power training. It is a system of training methods to cultivate one's ability to initiate any movement from the feet. Once you master the method (usually takes a few years), your movement will look smaller than those initiated with other mechanisms (especially the waist and hip areas), sometimes even invisible. In sum, all the movements are from the feet if you watch closely.

Master Pan has written two books on the method; however, they are all in Chinese. The only English literature available is the article published in the December 2004 issue of the Kungfu Taichi Magazine.

[suddenflower]

please elaborate, especially how one is able to move and not breathe in concert with the movement and get full body motion (the respiratory diaphragm, last I checked, is sorta important for spinal fluidity); I agree that you don't have to create large spinal undulations, but if you don't coordinate the breath, you are locking - which can certainly generate power, but in the long run you are throwing the autonomics out of balance by performing what amount to Valsalva maneuvers

In many styles, one needs to inhale first and then fajing with fast exhalation. I think what chrisfreel meant is that the movement is independent of breathing, which is not the same as not breathing at all while you are executing certain (fajing) movements. It just means that your movements are not constrained by breathing in or out. For example, you may even strike and talk at the same time.

[cjurakpt]

The movements in the video are executed based on the Pre-Heaven Power Method developed by Pan Yue. Master Pan's work is a revolutionary approach to internal power training. It is a system of training methods to cultivate one's ability to initiate any movement from the feet. Once you master the method (usually takes a few years), your movement will look smaller than those initiated with other mechanisms (especially the waist and hip areas), sometimes even invisible. In sum, all the movements are from the feet if you watch closely.

Master Pan has written two books on the method; however, they are all in Chinese. The only English literature available is the article published in the December 2004 issue of the Kungfu Taichi Magazine.

sounds a lot like what we do in our school - in normal English, it's utilizing the connective tissue network, including the deep fascia of the dural membranes, to conduct ground reaction force that is generated through the interrction of the body via the breath to the floor; there is also some function of the autonomics related to this, typically that is what gets "opened up" through things like Miro / macro cosmic orbit practice

it's not particularly revolutionary, it has been described in various ways by various people over the years (especially in soe of the western integrated body movement systems) - physics is physics, always has been, always will be - anything that works in harmony with natural systems along the lines of complex theory / tensegrity will have that same effect; and in my experience, there is nothing in any of this stuff that can't be described without using Chinese terminology

again, it's hard to see, it's more a feel - and I did watch the feet, it's actually the main thing I was watching - as you say, it can be imperceptable, harder to tell from video, and only by feeling or discussing it directly with the individual can it be truly ascertained; but I make my living watching people move every day and am trained both in regular kinesiology / biomechanics as well as internal practice, so I can typically spot it for what it is; again, I am not saying absolutely, it's just what it looked like

[cjurakpt]

In many styles, one needs to inhale first and then fajing with fast exhalation. I think what chrisfreel meant is that the movement is independent of breathing, which is not the same as not breathing at all while you are executing certain (fajing) movements. It just means that your movements are not constrained by breathing in or out. For example, you may even strike and talk at the same time.

well, again, movement is never really independent of breathing (even when you lock the breath, something is happening on a cellular level, but anyway) - it's just a question of how the movement of the respiratory structures coordinates with the axial spine and extremities - as for being able to talk and strike, ok, that's as may be - and yes, you can do the same move with differnt breath configuration - you'll get different results in terms of what happens (e.g. - repelling someone versus grounding someone);

[swimgrad]

Please elaborate why this is "revolutionary"?

Here, I just want to summarize two features of the method.
1. Power comes directly from the feet and Dantien is just an important point in the energy transmission path. In other words, the source of explosive fajing is no longer the Dantien, but the feet.
2. The feet are constantly in a state of vibration. Traditionally, in Chinese martial arts, "toes grab the ground firmly," or "Yongquan contacts the ground closely."

You may read the article for more details or watch the following video clips about the founder of YiZungYue martial arts. These are excerpts from an interview with a TV station in Taipei. Someone in China (not associated with his group) posted the videos. The conversation is either in Chinese or Taiwanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlAcbnDhj50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um73Yd2vBjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHBOSRMsprU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58q3cnb1YS8

[cjurakpt]

Here, I just want to summarize two features of the method.
1. Power comes directly from the feet and Dantien is just an important point in the energy transmission path. In other words, the source of explosive fajing is no longer the Dantien, but the feet.
2. The feet are constantly in a state of vibration. Traditionally, in Chinese martial arts, "toes grab the ground firmly," or "Yongquan contacts the ground closely."

You may read the article for more details or watch the following video clips about the founder of YiZungYue martial arts. These are excerpts from an interview with a TV station in Taipei. Someone in China (not associated with his group) posted the videos. The conversation is either in Chinese or Taiwanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlAcbnDhj50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um73Yd2vBjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHBOSRMsprU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58q3cnb1YS8

read you Chuang Tzu:
"The men of old breathed clear down to their heels." (it's somewhere in the Inner Chapters); what did you think he's talking about?

in our school we practice "standing on the golden blade" to activate the arch of the foot and "pump" the pedal diaphragm everytime we move; also, it's not the toes that grasp the ground, they spread out to create space in between each toe - it's actually the mid foot using the deep pedal flexors - if you grab with the superficial flexors out to the end of the meta tarsals you actually lock the foot and increase the overall tension in the plantar fasciae (which is tight in most people)

also, there are several schools of thought that essentially describe this is varying ways, that have nothing to do with Chinese Taoist practice, martial or otherwise; two examples that come to mind are Osteopathy (Still, Sutherland - Primary Respiratory Mechanism) and Anthroposophy (Steiner - Tripartition)

nothing new under the sun...

[chrisfreel]

Anone, you see what you want to see. You liked what you saw for body mechanics in the clip of Master Pan, but you didn't like seeing it in a Hsing Yi form or applications. Whatever. It's the same mechanism.

Right now there's little point in talking to you... you're defensive like a little child, so there's no discussion, only reaction on your part.

[swimgrad]

You have responded as I expected about the revolutionary aspect of the Pre-Heaven Power Method. It was not my intention or to my interest to convince you about it in this forum. I just felt obliged to answer anone's question and provide some minimum background on the method.

[chrisfreel]

read you Chuang Tzu:
"The men of old breathed clear down to their heels." (it's somewhere in the Inner Chapters); what did you think he's talking about?

in our school we practice "standing on the golden blade" to activate the arch of the foot and "pump" the pedal diaphragm everytime we move; also, it's not the toes that grasp the ground, they spread out to create space in between each toe - it's actually the mid foot using the deep pedal flexors - if you grab with the superficial flexors out to the end of the meta tarsals you actually lock the foot and increase the overall tension in the plantar fasciae (which is tight in most people)

also, there are several schools of thought that essentially describe this is varying ways, that have nothing to do with Chinese Taoist practice, martial or otherwise; two examples that come to mind are Osteopathy (Still, Sutherland - Primary Respiratory Mechanism) and Anthroposophy (Steiner - Tripartition)

nothing new under the sun...

That's interesting. I have yet to see someone else using the same mechanism, at least in a generalized sense. I've seen examples where others use pieces of it for single actions, though. Do you have links to examples of this? Your descriptions of the anatomy don't sound like quite the same thing as what's going on here, but it'd be more clear to me with diagrams, video, etc.

[suddenflower]

Clip #2) Now this is an example of GOOD MECHANICS! And an anti-example to what is being demoed in the clip that started this thread.

Thank you for posting the clips. This man is very skilled and his body connection is both proper and very well honed. This is what should be manifest in a "master" level practitioner at a minimum and something that is not present in the clip at the top of this thread.

FYI: Master Lin is the only person approved by Master Pan to openly teach the Pre-Heaven Power Method in U. S. I don't blame you if you cannot see the relationship between Master Pan's basic fajing demos and the movements demonstrated by Master Lin in the Xingyi form. For someone unfamiliar with the method, it is very difficult to see how the method is used in the movements of traditional martial arts styles.

[grncastle]

Clip #2) Now this is an example of GOOD MECHANICS! And an anti-example to what is being demoed in the clip that started this thread.

Thank you for posting the clips. This man is very skilled and his body connection is both proper and very well honed. This is what should be manifest in a "master" level practitioner at a minimum and something that is not present in the clip at the top of this thread. I still stand by my original observations of that clip and these very much back up what I stated, if you have the eyes to see the difference.

Actually, after swimgrad posted the videos of Pan, I knew someone will use the posts to attack Lin's video, i.e., praise the teacher to downgrade the student. This is a typical Chinese Communist fighting strategy: ally with the secondary enemy to attack the primary enemy.

[cjurakpt]

That's interesting. I have yet to see someone else using the same mechanism, at least in a generalized sense. I've seen examples where others use pieces of it for single actions, though. Do you have links to examples of this? Your descriptions of the anatomy don't sound like quite the same thing as what's going on here, but it'd be more clear to me with diagrams, video, etc.

no video or diagrams, just personal experience backed up by personal knowledge of anatomy / phys;

if you give me specific examples, I can try to clarify my previous statements

[cjurakpt]

You have responded as I expected about the revolutionary aspect of the Pre-Heaven Power Method. It was not my intention or to my interest to convince you about it in this forum. I just felt obliged to answer anone's question and provide some minimum background on the method.

spoken like a true zealot, and proof of your inability to handle the possibility that what you think makes your teacher and style special is actually not so rarified

you can't seem to understand that just because it's not unique doesn't devalue it - it actually strengthens the validity of it, because others have arrived at the same "truth" independently

[cjurakpt]

FYI: Master Lin is the only person approved by Master Pan to openly teach the Pre-Heaven Power Method in U. S. I don't blame you if you cannot see the relationship between Master Pan's basic fajing demos and the movements demonstrated by Master Lin in the Xingyi form. For someone unfamiliar with the method, it is very difficult to see how the method is used in the movements of traditional martial arts styles.

the old "it' so unique, only we can tell what's happening"; in other words, if someone critiques it, they obviously don't see what's going on rather then the possibility that they are correct

movement is movement; principles are principles; truth is truth

rather than hide behind fancy names and redirection, why not discuss the method in more detail? at least I have provided some speific concepts and principles to illustrate my point; and at least one of your bretheren has made a folow-up inquiry when I did not provide enough clarity for him to make an informed assessment...

Actually, after swimgrad posted the videos of Pan, I knew someone will use the posts to attack Lin's video, i.e., praise the teacher to downgrade the student. This is a typical Chinese Communist fighting strategy: ally with the secondary enemy to attack the primary enemy.

or, it shows that the source is sound and valid - ever think of that? remember, the downgrading of the student occured before the evidence of the teacher was presented; and this is the US - if we want to downgrade the student, we say that the teacher rots as well! we are a bit more literal and direct than the Chinese, no?

I happen to agree that Mr. Pan is apparantly a very connected and integrated practitioner, although I am always a bit leery of the "throw the student across the room" demos - typically the stuent is happy to "agree" with the teacher a bit more than a hostile resisting opponent would be; nevertheless, regardless of that, it is his quality of movement that impressed me - no rough edges, very much at ease

[ramszman]

As someone who has just been practicing IMA for the past 18 years I have been very impressed with Hsing Yi of Master Lin. Both in person and on the video. I have seen and felt other Hsing Yi practicioners in the Chicagoland area and while they have been very skilled they have not demonstated the interconnective forces that I have felt from Master Lin. I would be curious for someone to post an example of a video that they felt was a good visual representation of Hsing Yi. It does not have to be your own video but one that you feel captures the essense of Hsing Yi.