Video: Hsing Yi Chuan (Xingyiquan) Form and Applications

[chrisfreel]

Uh huh. You first.

And I have all the time in the world. The reason I chose the name I did.. Anone.. is for two purposes. 1) "Anon" - Tomorrow; because there is always tomorrow and another day of training is another day toward true skill. And, 2) "a+none" as in I do not consider myself to be more than any other, hence "none".

But in regards to the man behind the mask; I am known by many and the many I do not wish to offend. Therefore, as I said earlier.. I am here of my own accord, not theirs. I say what I wish because the internet gives me, and you, and any other, the platform to do exactly that.

Because I go against your truth, you attack and belittle me. That's okay. Such resorts are always manifest in those who do not know but choose to believe. I have no problem with that and actually understand your mentality all too well.

I go on these forums so that there is not only "one voice". Because many who are truly seeking also go on these forums and I want them to have the opportunity to see differing opinions. Live with it.

You must be a troll. When he asks you to post a vid showing us anything to verify your skill, you say "you first". Uh, he did post something first. The video that started this thread, remember? Then you blather on about about your name. Like anyone cares. You talk a lot but don't say very much. Put up or shut up.

[grncastle]

So you're saying that "Wei-Chung Lin" is "suddenflower"?

Your statement here again reflects your poor reasoning ability. It is you who were asked to post a video in order to substantiate your claim that you are an expert in Xingyi or Bagua. Suddenflower has never claimed that he/she is an expert of any martial arts and there is no need for him/her to establish credability. Besides starting the thread, all he/she has said in this forum is to ask you to post a video. Whether he is Wei-Chung Lin or not is not an issue here. Don't try to shift our attention and evade the issue of you posting a video to establish your credability.

[cjurakpt]

I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;

as for the apps, some seems quite reasonable, others more stylized than practical, but one can say that about most any form of TMA: sooner or later the "flavor" of the system tends to overshadow the pragmatics; in many cases, the attackers' appeared to lack focus and intent in their strikes as well, which is also typical for students "attacking" their teacher

I don't think the guy is terrible, just not the best I have ever seen (I'd give about a 7 out of 10)

I suppose I will have to post my CV and sevral letters of referrence now...

[chrisfreel]

I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;

I assume you mean from the shoulders, not the hands, since that's pretty much impossible, right? Anyway, if it's internal, there wouldn't necessarily always be a big enough movement to tell, although of course it's something you can test. Since I've been on the receiving end, I'd say the connection is definitely there, though sometimes that's hard to see from a video. Also, the power generation isn't the same as most others use... no obvious movement from breathing or curving/straightening of the spine, for example.

as for the apps, some seems quite reasonable, others more stylized than practical, but one can say that about most any form of TMA: sooner or later the "flavor" of the system tends to overshadow the pragmatics; in many cases, the attackers' appeared to lack focus and intent in their strikes as well, which is also typical for students "attacking" their teacher

Yeah, but there's also the little fact that all the movements of the technique are pulled, so that the students will come back for the next class. This hurts the realism, but is the only practical way to practice some things.

I don't think the guy is terrible, just not the best I have ever seen (I'd give about a 7 out of 10)

I suppose I will have to post my CV and sevral letters of referrence now...

There's a big difference from a reasonable criticism "I don't see this..." and the kind of trash talk that someone else here is apparently famous for....

[cjurakpt]

I assume you mean from the shoulders, not the hands, since that's pretty much impossible, right?

the shoulders, of course, have to move, but the question is what does the moving? if talking about purely neuromuscular activation, it's basically starting and ending with anterior deltoids; when the power generation is from the pedal diaphragm (Subterannean Spring), it travels through the connective tissue network of the legs, spine and then to the shoulders where it joins the neuromuscular component

Anyway, if it's internal, there wouldn't necessarily always be a big enough movement to tell, although of course it's something you can test. Since I've been on the receiving end, I'd say the connection is definitely there, though sometimes that's hard to see from a video.

I'm not actually looking for visible movement; there is a qualitative aspect of whole body connective tissue activation that is discernable, albeit, as you point out, it is more difficult to see on a video; which is why I qualified it with "as far as I can tell"; basically, when it's there, the feeling is one of ease and fullness, when not, it's like driving your car with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake; as far as your subjective experience of feeling it directly, I have no capacity to refute that, since I haven't felt it myself; you may be delusional, you may be right on, I have no way of knowing;

Also, the power generation isn't the same as most others use... no obvious movement from breathing or curving/straightening of the spine, for example.

please elaborate, especially how one is able to move and not breathe in concert with the movement and get full body motion (the respiratory diaphragm, last I checked, is sorta important for spinal fluidity); I agree that you don't have to create large spinal undulations, but if you don't coordinate the breath, you are locking - which can certainly generate power, but in the long run you are throwing the autonomics out of balance by performing what amount to Valsalva maneuvers

Yeah, but there's also the little fact that all the movements of the technique are pulled, so that the students will come back for the next class. This hurts the realism, but is the only practical way to practice some things.

I'm not talking about pulling, i;m talking about context; that is, some of the apps look like "regular" boring old fighting; others are much more stylized, but rely on too many variables going the way you want them to be really applicable; which is fine, it is a martial "art", there is always going to be some stuff that is more artistic than others...

There's a big difference from a reasonable criticism "I don't see this..." and the kind of trash talk that someone else here is apparently famous for....

well, I don't know - it seems that people have a problem more with how something was said then what was said; but I haven't followed any of his other stuff, so I can't compare

[cruz]

Look Its Realy Hard To Say If Some One Has Real Skill Or Not Or Is Connected To The Core Or Not Just By Watching A Video .he May Just Be Empty Movements Or He May Be The Real Deal .you Will Never Know Inless You Get To Meat Him ..but I Can See Were Anone Gets His Opinion From

[suddenflower]

please elaborate, especially how one is able to move and not breathe in concert with the movement and get full body motion (the respiratory diaphragm, last I checked, is sorta important for spinal fluidity); I agree that you don't have to create large spinal undulations, but if you don't coordinate the breath, you are locking - which can certainly generate power, but in the long run you are throwing the autonomics out of balance by performing what amount to Valsalva maneuvers

In many styles, one needs to inhale first and then fajing with fast exhalation. I think what chrisfreel meant is that the movement is independent of breathing, which is not the same as not breathing at all while you are executing certain (fajing) movements. It just means that your movements are not constrained by breathing in or out. For example, you may even strike and talk at the same time.

[cjurakpt]

In many styles, one needs to inhale first and then fajing with fast exhalation. I think what chrisfreel meant is that the movement is independent of breathing, which is not the same as not breathing at all while you are executing certain (fajing) movements. It just means that your movements are not constrained by breathing in or out. For example, you may even strike and talk at the same time.

well, again, movement is never really independent of breathing (even when you lock the breath, something is happening on a cellular level, but anyway) - it's just a question of how the movement of the respiratory structures coordinates with the axial spine and extremities - as for being able to talk and strike, ok, that's as may be - and yes, you can do the same move with differnt breath configuration - you'll get different results in terms of what happens (e.g. - repelling someone versus grounding someone);

[swimgrad]

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;769176]I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;
QUOTE]

The movements in the video are executed based on the Pre-Heaven Power Method developed by Pan Yue. Master Pan's work is a revolutionary approach to internal power training. It is a system of training methods to cultivate one's ability to initiate any movement from the feet. Once you master the method (usually takes a few years), your movement will look smaller than those initiated with other mechanisms (especially the waist and hip areas), sometimes even invisible. In sum, all the movements are from the feet if you watch closely.

Master Pan has written two books on the method; however, they are all in Chinese. The only English literature available is the article published in the December 2004 issue of the Kungfu Taichi Magazine.

[cjurakpt]

The movements in the video are executed based on the Pre-Heaven Power Method developed by Pan Yue. Master Pan's work is a revolutionary approach to internal power training. It is a system of training methods to cultivate one's ability to initiate any movement from the feet. Once you master the method (usually takes a few years), your movement will look smaller than those initiated with other mechanisms (especially the waist and hip areas), sometimes even invisible. In sum, all the movements are from the feet if you watch closely.

Master Pan has written two books on the method; however, they are all in Chinese. The only English literature available is the article published in the December 2004 issue of the Kungfu Taichi Magazine.

sounds a lot like what we do in our school - in normal English, it's utilizing the connective tissue network, including the deep fascia of the dural membranes, to conduct ground reaction force that is generated through the interrction of the body via the breath to the floor; there is also some function of the autonomics related to this, typically that is what gets "opened up" through things like Miro / macro cosmic orbit practice

it's not particularly revolutionary, it has been described in various ways by various people over the years (especially in soe of the western integrated body movement systems) - physics is physics, always has been, always will be - anything that works in harmony with natural systems along the lines of complex theory / tensegrity will have that same effect; and in my experience, there is nothing in any of this stuff that can't be described without using Chinese terminology

again, it's hard to see, it's more a feel - and I did watch the feet, it's actually the main thing I was watching - as you say, it can be imperceptable, harder to tell from video, and only by feeling or discussing it directly with the individual can it be truly ascertained; but I make my living watching people move every day and am trained both in regular kinesiology / biomechanics as well as internal practice, so I can typically spot it for what it is; again, I am not saying absolutely, it's just what it looked like

[swimgrad]

Please elaborate why this is "revolutionary"?

Here, I just want to summarize two features of the method.
1. Power comes directly from the feet and Dantien is just an important point in the energy transmission path. In other words, the source of explosive fajing is no longer the Dantien, but the feet.
2. The feet are constantly in a state of vibration. Traditionally, in Chinese martial arts, "toes grab the ground firmly," or "Yongquan contacts the ground closely."

You may read the article for more details or watch the following video clips about the founder of YiZungYue martial arts. These are excerpts from an interview with a TV station in Taipei. Someone in China (not associated with his group) posted the videos. The conversation is either in Chinese or Taiwanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlAcbnDhj50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um73Yd2vBjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHBOSRMsprU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58q3cnb1YS8

[cjurakpt]

Here, I just want to summarize two features of the method.
1. Power comes directly from the feet and Dantien is just an important point in the energy transmission path. In other words, the source of explosive fajing is no longer the Dantien, but the feet.
2. The feet are constantly in a state of vibration. Traditionally, in Chinese martial arts, "toes grab the ground firmly," or "Yongquan contacts the ground closely."

You may read the article for more details or watch the following video clips about the founder of YiZungYue martial arts. These are excerpts from an interview with a TV station in Taipei. Someone in China (not associated with his group) posted the videos. The conversation is either in Chinese or Taiwanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlAcbnDhj50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um73Yd2vBjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHBOSRMsprU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58q3cnb1YS8

read you Chuang Tzu:
"The men of old breathed clear down to their heels." (it's somewhere in the Inner Chapters); what did you think he's talking about?

in our school we practice "standing on the golden blade" to activate the arch of the foot and "pump" the pedal diaphragm everytime we move; also, it's not the toes that grasp the ground, they spread out to create space in between each toe - it's actually the mid foot using the deep pedal flexors - if you grab with the superficial flexors out to the end of the meta tarsals you actually lock the foot and increase the overall tension in the plantar fasciae (which is tight in most people)

also, there are several schools of thought that essentially describe this is varying ways, that have nothing to do with Chinese Taoist practice, martial or otherwise; two examples that come to mind are Osteopathy (Still, Sutherland - Primary Respiratory Mechanism) and Anthroposophy (Steiner - Tripartition)

nothing new under the sun...

[swimgrad]

You have responded as I expected about the revolutionary aspect of the Pre-Heaven Power Method. It was not my intention or to my interest to convince you about it in this forum. I just felt obliged to answer anone's question and provide some minimum background on the method.

[chrisfreel]

read you Chuang Tzu:
"The men of old breathed clear down to their heels." (it's somewhere in the Inner Chapters); what did you think he's talking about?

in our school we practice "standing on the golden blade" to activate the arch of the foot and "pump" the pedal diaphragm everytime we move; also, it's not the toes that grasp the ground, they spread out to create space in between each toe - it's actually the mid foot using the deep pedal flexors - if you grab with the superficial flexors out to the end of the meta tarsals you actually lock the foot and increase the overall tension in the plantar fasciae (which is tight in most people)

also, there are several schools of thought that essentially describe this is varying ways, that have nothing to do with Chinese Taoist practice, martial or otherwise; two examples that come to mind are Osteopathy (Still, Sutherland - Primary Respiratory Mechanism) and Anthroposophy (Steiner - Tripartition)

nothing new under the sun...

That's interesting. I have yet to see someone else using the same mechanism, at least in a generalized sense. I've seen examples where others use pieces of it for single actions, though. Do you have links to examples of this? Your descriptions of the anatomy don't sound like quite the same thing as what's going on here, but it'd be more clear to me with diagrams, video, etc.

[chrisfreel]

Anone, you see what you want to see. You liked what you saw for body mechanics in the clip of Master Pan, but you didn't like seeing it in a Hsing Yi form or applications. Whatever. It's the same mechanism.

Right now there's little point in talking to you... you're defensive like a little child, so there's no discussion, only reaction on your part.