Video: Hsing Yi Chuan (Xingyiquan) Form and Applications

[grncastle]

Never-the-less, my opinion is what I stated. I have over three decades involved with Chinese Internal Martial Art, especially xingyi. To my eye, involving the video clip in question, it seems that the structure is not well grounded and the techniques are being delivered primarily with mechanical energy from the shoulder.

I feel sorry about your three decade's of Xingyi training; it is a total waste of time since you haven't learned anything (or even learn something wrong) judging from what you said here. If this is really what you saw in the video, you'd better start looking for a genuine Xingyi teacher and start all over again.

Also, given my experiences in fighting, many of the techniques (especially those involving spinning the body completely around while in the centerline of the opponent) are very foolish and will be easily countered. I stand by my opinions whether you agree or disagree.

The spinning actually is a back strike. It is quite common in Bagua also. There is a lot of skill involved in this kind of move. Your bad experiences may be due to your poor skill in executing this kind of advanced movement.

I thought the purpose of a forum was to be able to post one's opinions without censure. I made two statements based on my experience regarding the video clip posted, neither of which were derogatory. Unless of course all comments posted which are not filled with glowing praise are to be considered derogatory.

When you say something ridiculously and outrageously untrue, every sensible participants in the forum felt it. To maintain the integrity and prestige of this forum, you should be responsible for what you say. Do you need me to remind you about the comments on you by Master Mike Patterson in a previous thread?

[suddenflower]

I have had many genuine xingyi teachers. Not that it would matter to you, but some of my teachers have been or are currently some of the most respected in the field. And no, don't bother to ask me to disclose their names. I am here of my own accord, not theirs.

And yes, that is really what I saw in the video. Remember I did originally say there were some good things as well as some bad and some ridiculous. My other comment had to do with the mechanics and what seems to me to be a performance that is not worthy of the title "master", although I will concede that he is beyond novice certainly and approaching decent skills. And you are entitled to your own opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

A good bagua exponent would not execute a spinning "strike" to the inside of the opponent's center line. Spinning movements in bagua that are executed to the centerline are draws (flashing the back), not attacks. Your statements belie how little you actually understand about real fighting. And you, like so many others, are a victim of your own ignorance. On the other hand, I have fought both in competition and the street for most of my adult life. My "experiences" have nothing to do with a poor skill level. They have to do with reality. And reality says that such a technique will work only on scared students. But a determined opponent with decent skills will own you.

To save your time in describing your credentials and justifying your authorities, why don't you post a video, e.g., splitting fist or anything you have taped during the past three decades, so that we can tell how good you are? We are looking forward to seeing it.

[chrisfreel]

Uh huh. You first.

And I have all the time in the world. The reason I chose the name I did.. Anone.. is for two purposes. 1) "Anon" - Tomorrow; because there is always tomorrow and another day of training is another day toward true skill. And, 2) "a+none" as in I do not consider myself to be more than any other, hence "none".

But in regards to the man behind the mask; I am known by many and the many I do not wish to offend. Therefore, as I said earlier.. I am here of my own accord, not theirs. I say what I wish because the internet gives me, and you, and any other, the platform to do exactly that.

Because I go against your truth, you attack and belittle me. That's okay. Such resorts are always manifest in those who do not know but choose to believe. I have no problem with that and actually understand your mentality all too well.

I go on these forums so that there is not only "one voice". Because many who are truly seeking also go on these forums and I want them to have the opportunity to see differing opinions. Live with it.

You must be a troll. When he asks you to post a vid showing us anything to verify your skill, you say "you first". Uh, he did post something first. The video that started this thread, remember? Then you blather on about about your name. Like anyone cares. You talk a lot but don't say very much. Put up or shut up.

[grncastle]

So you're saying that "Wei-Chung Lin" is "suddenflower"?

Your statement here again reflects your poor reasoning ability. It is you who were asked to post a video in order to substantiate your claim that you are an expert in Xingyi or Bagua. Suddenflower has never claimed that he/she is an expert of any martial arts and there is no need for him/her to establish credability. Besides starting the thread, all he/she has said in this forum is to ask you to post a video. Whether he is Wei-Chung Lin or not is not an issue here. Don't try to shift our attention and evade the issue of you posting a video to establish your credability.

[cjurakpt]

I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;

as for the apps, some seems quite reasonable, others more stylized than practical, but one can say that about most any form of TMA: sooner or later the "flavor" of the system tends to overshadow the pragmatics; in many cases, the attackers' appeared to lack focus and intent in their strikes as well, which is also typical for students "attacking" their teacher

I don't think the guy is terrible, just not the best I have ever seen (I'd give about a 7 out of 10)

I suppose I will have to post my CV and sevral letters of referrence now...

[chrisfreel]

I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;

I assume you mean from the shoulders, not the hands, since that's pretty much impossible, right? Anyway, if it's internal, there wouldn't necessarily always be a big enough movement to tell, although of course it's something you can test. Since I've been on the receiving end, I'd say the connection is definitely there, though sometimes that's hard to see from a video. Also, the power generation isn't the same as most others use... no obvious movement from breathing or curving/straightening of the spine, for example.

as for the apps, some seems quite reasonable, others more stylized than practical, but one can say that about most any form of TMA: sooner or later the "flavor" of the system tends to overshadow the pragmatics; in many cases, the attackers' appeared to lack focus and intent in their strikes as well, which is also typical for students "attacking" their teacher

Yeah, but there's also the little fact that all the movements of the technique are pulled, so that the students will come back for the next class. This hurts the realism, but is the only practical way to practice some things.

I don't think the guy is terrible, just not the best I have ever seen (I'd give about a 7 out of 10)

I suppose I will have to post my CV and sevral letters of referrence now...

There's a big difference from a reasonable criticism "I don't see this..." and the kind of trash talk that someone else here is apparently famous for....

[cjurakpt]

I assume you mean from the shoulders, not the hands, since that's pretty much impossible, right?

the shoulders, of course, have to move, but the question is what does the moving? if talking about purely neuromuscular activation, it's basically starting and ending with anterior deltoids; when the power generation is from the pedal diaphragm (Subterannean Spring), it travels through the connective tissue network of the legs, spine and then to the shoulders where it joins the neuromuscular component

Anyway, if it's internal, there wouldn't necessarily always be a big enough movement to tell, although of course it's something you can test. Since I've been on the receiving end, I'd say the connection is definitely there, though sometimes that's hard to see from a video.

I'm not actually looking for visible movement; there is a qualitative aspect of whole body connective tissue activation that is discernable, albeit, as you point out, it is more difficult to see on a video; which is why I qualified it with "as far as I can tell"; basically, when it's there, the feeling is one of ease and fullness, when not, it's like driving your car with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake; as far as your subjective experience of feeling it directly, I have no capacity to refute that, since I haven't felt it myself; you may be delusional, you may be right on, I have no way of knowing;

Also, the power generation isn't the same as most others use... no obvious movement from breathing or curving/straightening of the spine, for example.

please elaborate, especially how one is able to move and not breathe in concert with the movement and get full body motion (the respiratory diaphragm, last I checked, is sorta important for spinal fluidity); I agree that you don't have to create large spinal undulations, but if you don't coordinate the breath, you are locking - which can certainly generate power, but in the long run you are throwing the autonomics out of balance by performing what amount to Valsalva maneuvers

Yeah, but there's also the little fact that all the movements of the technique are pulled, so that the students will come back for the next class. This hurts the realism, but is the only practical way to practice some things.

I'm not talking about pulling, i;m talking about context; that is, some of the apps look like "regular" boring old fighting; others are much more stylized, but rely on too many variables going the way you want them to be really applicable; which is fine, it is a martial "art", there is always going to be some stuff that is more artistic than others...

There's a big difference from a reasonable criticism "I don't see this..." and the kind of trash talk that someone else here is apparently famous for....

well, I don't know - it seems that people have a problem more with how something was said then what was said; but I haven't followed any of his other stuff, so I can't compare

[swimgrad]

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;769176]I watched the video several times; I would say that, as far as I can tell, the connection of core to periphery is not total; for example, in the very first movement, the initiation is from the hands, not the feet or even the spine;
QUOTE]

The movements in the video are executed based on the Pre-Heaven Power Method developed by Pan Yue. Master Pan's work is a revolutionary approach to internal power training. It is a system of training methods to cultivate one's ability to initiate any movement from the feet. Once you master the method (usually takes a few years), your movement will look smaller than those initiated with other mechanisms (especially the waist and hip areas), sometimes even invisible. In sum, all the movements are from the feet if you watch closely.

Master Pan has written two books on the method; however, they are all in Chinese. The only English literature available is the article published in the December 2004 issue of the Kungfu Taichi Magazine.

[cjurakpt]

The movements in the video are executed based on the Pre-Heaven Power Method developed by Pan Yue. Master Pan's work is a revolutionary approach to internal power training. It is a system of training methods to cultivate one's ability to initiate any movement from the feet. Once you master the method (usually takes a few years), your movement will look smaller than those initiated with other mechanisms (especially the waist and hip areas), sometimes even invisible. In sum, all the movements are from the feet if you watch closely.

Master Pan has written two books on the method; however, they are all in Chinese. The only English literature available is the article published in the December 2004 issue of the Kungfu Taichi Magazine.

sounds a lot like what we do in our school - in normal English, it's utilizing the connective tissue network, including the deep fascia of the dural membranes, to conduct ground reaction force that is generated through the interrction of the body via the breath to the floor; there is also some function of the autonomics related to this, typically that is what gets "opened up" through things like Miro / macro cosmic orbit practice

it's not particularly revolutionary, it has been described in various ways by various people over the years (especially in soe of the western integrated body movement systems) - physics is physics, always has been, always will be - anything that works in harmony with natural systems along the lines of complex theory / tensegrity will have that same effect; and in my experience, there is nothing in any of this stuff that can't be described without using Chinese terminology

again, it's hard to see, it's more a feel - and I did watch the feet, it's actually the main thing I was watching - as you say, it can be imperceptable, harder to tell from video, and only by feeling or discussing it directly with the individual can it be truly ascertained; but I make my living watching people move every day and am trained both in regular kinesiology / biomechanics as well as internal practice, so I can typically spot it for what it is; again, I am not saying absolutely, it's just what it looked like

[swimgrad]

Please elaborate why this is "revolutionary"?

Here, I just want to summarize two features of the method.
1. Power comes directly from the feet and Dantien is just an important point in the energy transmission path. In other words, the source of explosive fajing is no longer the Dantien, but the feet.
2. The feet are constantly in a state of vibration. Traditionally, in Chinese martial arts, "toes grab the ground firmly," or "Yongquan contacts the ground closely."

You may read the article for more details or watch the following video clips about the founder of YiZungYue martial arts. These are excerpts from an interview with a TV station in Taipei. Someone in China (not associated with his group) posted the videos. The conversation is either in Chinese or Taiwanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlAcbnDhj50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um73Yd2vBjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHBOSRMsprU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58q3cnb1YS8

[chrisfreel]

So you're saying that "Wei-Chung Lin" is "suddenflower"?

I actually don't know who "suddenflower" is. They asked you to post a video proving you're not some little 13 year old talking big from his mom's basement. Your response was "you first". Hey, they started the thread with a video, it doesn't matter whether it's them or not. You're the one with no cred.

But like I said already, you're probably here just to start arguments. You said you have lots of time. Maybe it's all for posting on the internet, not for practice.

[tcphillips]

Anone, It's my contention that Suddenflower's XinYi video is in the top 1% of XinYI videos on You Tube. So either you are a member of some rarified cult that takes their XinYi to an unheard of level (and keeps it secret) or you are that troll we all had in High School BioChemistry who philosophically could not grant an excellent grade. Maybe you could dig up some superior videos, post them and enlighten us thereby. Or are you too busy grading papers when you should be practicing?

[chrisfreel]

Funny man..

I have neither the time nor inclination to scour "You Tube" or any other web locale for the gratification of you and your cronies. Unlike you internet warriors, I have a full life.

This is particularly amusing in light of your large number of posts on this thread.

But here are a few names off the top of my head (not necessarily all known for Xingyi) that I think have/had good body mechanics based on direct contact. It is by no means meant to be a complete list and I apologize to any of my past or present mentors and constituents that I may forget to mention here....

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

These men were/are all powerful in their own right and their IMA skills really cannot be disputed.

Yeah, but did you learn anything from any of them. Anyone can sign up for a class from someone famous. It doesn't mean you learned anything from them.

Btw, still waiting for some real insights on the video. Simply saying "It's my contention that Suddenflower's XinYi video is in the top 1% of XinYI videos on You Tube", is not really saying much at all now is it?

Well, it says more than you have. Then again, that isn't much of a standard, is it?

[chrisfreel]

Hey, I'm on vacation.. what can I say?
But if you check my profile history, you'll see that I haven't been on here in quite a long time. Nor, do I post often considering the amount of time I have been a member.

But you have all the time in the world to post nonsense now, eh?

The issue is not whether or not I learned anything from them or any other (although I know you and your pals are trying to make it so). The issue is whether or not the person in the original video has good body connection.

I see structure in the original video, as well as the others of Master Pan. Just because you say you don't doesn't mean it isn't there. Further more, I see more than just structure.

Of course now you have brought in a subpoint as it were... are you trying to say the that the gentlemen I named above, meaning:

Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

Do not have good body mechanics as you see it?

I didn't say that at all. It's called a straw man, it's one thing you ARE good at. The question is whether YOU have any skill, given how high and mighty you're talking. Of course others may have skill, but did you actually learn from them (not just a seminar), and did you actually pick anything up.

No, it's not... and that is exactly what I said. Now, please let's hear exactly why you, or any of you, in detail mind you, think that the Lin video is representative of good body mechanics. Because so far, none of you has said anything intelligent, save one... and he has been airing similar opinions to my own.

You only consider him intelligent because he agrees with you. As I said, I don't see the problem, and you haven't detailed anything, just that you didn't like it, that you don't see connection. Well, plenty of us do. Ever consider the problem might be on your end?

[suddenflower]

But here are a few names off the top of my head (not necessarily all known for Xingyi) that I think have/had good body mechanics based on direct contact. Zhang Jun Feng; Hung Yi Hsiang; Li Tai Liang; Luo De Xiu; Su Dong Chen; George Xu; Henry Look; Mike Patterson; Tim Cartmell;

These men were/are all powerful in their own right and their IMA skills really cannot be disputed.

What did you mean by "direct contact"? Have you met these guys in person?