Health care debate!

[dimethylsea]

1Bad65,

Honest question for you.

Do you think enough of the idea of free markets in medicine to think that mandatory medical licensure is a mistake? I.e. is it right that people can be tried in court and put in jail for "practicing medicine without a license"? Even if they clearly say "I am not a M.D./physician"?

Is it right that the government should restrict the sale of medications (and I'm referring to low/no-abuse potential meds like antibiotics or HCTZ) to those who have a order from a government blessed doctor, physician assistant or nurse-practioner (i.e. a licensed primary care provider)?

My thinking goes like this.
If you honestly believe in non-interference by government in healthcare then how can one support medical licensure laws and classifying of medicines and medical devices as "by order of a physician only"?

Now if someone thinks goverment has the right/duty/responsibility to meddle in healthcare.. then obviously they might think it's only a matter of what is "practical" and "most effective" (I think Obama and most Demos feel this way).

What confuses me is how some people rail against "goverment involved in healthcare" but they think it's ok for government to meddle in licensure, all kinds of malpractice and practice laws, fund medicare, support monopolies by various groups etc.

I don't see how they can justify this.

You don't like goverment in healthcare. Is this because you think it's wrong for goverment to do so (and if so.. is it ok to have them licensing M.D.s and all the other stuff? why?)... and if you don't think it's wrong for goverment to meddle in principle.. is it only that you don't think *this particular type* of meddling will prove impractical and be a failure?

This isn't an argumentative question btw.. I'm trying to figure out exactly where you stand and why.

[1bad65]

1Bad65,

Honest question for you.

Sure thing. I always answer questions posed to me. It's how people should debate and compare ideas.

Do you think enough of the idea of free markets in medicine to think that mandatory medical licensure is a mistake? I.e. is it right that people can be tried in court and put in jail for "practicing medicine without a license"? Even if they clearly say "I am not a M.D./physician"?

Is it right that the government should restrict the sale of medications (and I'm referring to low/no-abuse potential meds like antibiotics or HCTZ) to those who have a order from a government blessed doctor, physician assistant or nurse-practioner (i.e. a licensed primary care provider)?

For the first part, I do agree with the Government licensing physicians, to an extent. By that I mean the patient has the right to know the doctor they see is licensed if he has MD after his name. Practicing without a license, and not clearly informing the public, should indeed be a crime. Now if someone wants to open say a holistic medicine clininc, and is not a licensed physician, they should be free to as long it's clearly posted the practicioner is not licensed by the Government. The patient should also have to sign a release saying he/she understands the practicioner is not licensed by the Government.

I think the Government should do similar to what is being done now. License certain medications, like narcotics, muscle relaxers, etc, but not the the "low/no-abuse meds". Keep in mind, I could care less if someone wants to take a ton of muscle relaxers and risk death for a high. That's their business. But those do need to be regulated, as someone could abuse them at other's expense, say by spiking someone's drink/food for bad purposes.

What confuses me is how some people rail against "goverment involved in healthcare" but they think it's ok for government to meddle in licensure, all kinds of malpractice and practice laws, fund medicare, support monopolies by various groups etc.

Even though Govenrment has passed laws and meddled, it is still ultimately an American citizen's right to have a jury trial. The Government cannot put you in prison without a guilty plea or a conviction by your peers. I firmly believe in jury nullification in CERTAIN instances. If I was on a jury for a guy being tried for practicing medicine without a license, and his defense was that he openly told every patient he was not a lilcensed doctor (and he proved that), I would not vote to convict him.

You don't like goverment in healthcare. Is this because you think it's wrong for goverment to do so (and if so.. is it ok to have them licensing M.D.s and all the other stuff? why?)... and if you don't think it's wrong for goverment to meddle in principle.. is it only that you don't think *this particular type* of meddling will prove impractical and be a failure?

This isn't an argumentative question btw.. I'm trying to figure out exactly where you stand and why.

The Government does not need to meddle when it involces them giving someone something that someone else earned, like "free" health insurance. That's wrong. It's also wrong (and quite honestly criminal, imo) for the Government to have the final say in who does and who does not receive treatment. This a very slippery slope. Very, very evil Government/dictators have used weapons like choosing who is worth medical procedures and who is not worth medical procedures. It's something that free people should be, quite frankly, terrified of giving that power to any Government.

[dimethylsea]

1Bad65,

It sounds like your position on health care is internally consistent with a libertarian position. Most libertarians take the position that while people should be free to do as they choose, FRAUD is selling a service dishonestly.
Saying "I am an M.D." when you are not is fraud, and should be punished the same as selling land or property when the contract says "the title for this property is unencumbered and is for the the following boundaries" when (in fact) the land title is not encumbered.

Basically from a libertarian point of view selling the services of an M.D. when you are not an M.D. is "fraudulent conveyance of services". And since this is a service is one which concerns one's health and life then "fraudulent conveyance of health services" is morally equivalent to assault on one's life (possibly attempted murder depending on the treatment given) since the patient is consenting to the treatment *with the proviso that they are being treated by a person with an authentic Medical Doctor's degree and whatever certification the doc is supposed to have".

You said that certain medications with potential to be used as covert weapons might be restricted. While this is consistent with a "minimalist" view of government a true libertarian would argue that "the right to bear personal arms is absolute".
However anyone who used such substances against a non-consenting party (i.e. sereptitiously) would obviously be guilty of assault/attempted murder/murder. Just like putting a gun to someone's head.

I do find it extremely encouraging that you are aware of the concept of jury nullification and would vote your own conscience with respect to practice laws (i.e. if the services provider was absolutely honest with the patient about his credentials or lack thereof).

Under the circumstances I can see why government/socialized medicine would be anathema to you.

If the goverment were willing to allow truly free market medicine in line with a libertarian position then I would be all for it. Honestly I don't think people are willing to put up with it though. We have medical monopolies (the AMA etc.) who wish to guarantee their own expensive services and they have lots of clout when it comes to lobbying.

[David Jamieson]

yeesh, and what of the abjectly impoverished? the mentally ill? How do you sort a chronic unemployment number that is rising? Are you actually going to tell people to get a job in an environment where they are few and those that come with any sort of reasonable health care package that can sustain not only the worker but his or her family is fewer still.

Really? You're going with the "I worked since I was 16" thing?
Why not say you are selfish and don't want to help your fellow citizens?

I mean, what's the difference between paying for safe roads, which not everyone chips in for, in fact, if you do not own property, you are not paying for them and you know what? While you were working at the age of 16, all the tax payers before you built that road you took your first car out on. If you don't own a house, you are the free loader, if you do own one, but didn't while you drove your first auto, then you're a back door socialist user!

j'accuse!!!

lol

i can see how everyone has the absolute right to know exactly how it's going to go down. But to shout it all down without even understanding it is folly.

smokers and diabetics are the new hate? How about kids tat are born without limbs and the prosthetic cost thousands and not because there's a prosthetic scam going on, but that is the cost of doing business and employing people to make them etc etc.

you want all the business kept in America so everyone can have a job and pay their way? then shut down wal mart because they outsource EVERYTHING.

You can raise sin taxes. IE: you know smokes give cancer, why make em cheap, why not price them prohibitively so kids don't start and the people who insist on their right to smoke themselves to death can pay for their own health care with every puff.

why not do the same with liquor? beer?wine? none of these things are necessary and why not tax them to ensure that alcoholics who can't get their act together can at least get some health care when their brain breaks.

as for not caring about those less fortunate than you in your own country, well shame on you. I have nothing to say to you about that except that.

[1bad65]

Thanks Dime.

You are indeed correct, I'm a Libertarian. I actually call myself more of a strict Constitutionalist. This Gov't heathcare is indeed terrifying to someone like me.

[1bad65]

yeesh, and what of the abjectly impoverished? the mentally ill? How do you sort a chronic unemployment number that is rising? Are you actually going to tell people to get a job in an environment where they are few and those that come with any sort of reasonable health care package that can sustain not only the worker but his or her family is fewer still.

Americans are the most giving people in the world. You may despise us, but look at humanitarian aid. Show me one country who gives more. President Bush gave more FREE aid to Africa than any other President. Bet you didn't know that, did you?

Also, during roaring economic times, we give. And of our own choosing. During the 'Greedy 80s' charitable donations were up.

Really? You're going with the "I worked since I was 16" thing?
Why not say you are selfish and don't want to help your fellow citizens?

That ticked me off. First off, I have worked since I was 16. Is this upsetting to you? Why? Second, you don't know a **** thing about me. You have no idea who I give to and how much. You don't know if I do volunteer work. So don't make statements about me when you don't know me.

I mean, what's the difference between paying for safe roads, which not everyone chips in for, in fact, if you do not own property, you are not paying for them and you know what? While you were working at the age of 16, all the tax payers before you built that road you took your first car out on. If you don't own a house, you are the free loader, if you do own one, but didn't while you drove your first auto, then you're a back door socialist user!

You have no idea how things work down here. FYI, gasoline taxes, inspection fees, registration fees, and tolls are ways our roads are paid for. So since the day I began driving, I've been paying for the roads I use. Also FYI, our property taxes mainly go to fund education, not roads.

you want all the business kept in America so everyone can have a job and pay their way? then shut down wal mart because they outsource EVERYTHING.

Is that your solution? To fix high unemployment by shutting down a major employer?

What needs to be done is to make it easier/cheaper to run a business here in the US than abroad. The ONLY reason companies outsource is cost. When it's cheaper to do business in Communist China than in the US, there is a huge problem. Of course Obama's solution is to regulate and tax business more.

as for not caring about those less fortunate than you in your own country, well shame on you. I have nothing to say to you about that except that.

Again, how can you say that when you have no clue what I do or don't do in terms of charity and giving? So please shut up about things you know nothing about.

Cold hearted as though it may sound, my first responsibility is to my family. Not anyone else. If I CHOOSE to give, that's my business, but it should always be my CHOICE.

[Drake]

Aid to Africa annoys me. Ungrateful and they squandered virtually every dime of it.

[David Jamieson]

Americans are the most giving people in the world. You may despise us, but look at humanitarian aid. Show me one country who gives more. President Bush gave more FREE aid to Africa than any other President. Bet you didn't know that, did you?

You immediately hide behind your creation of "you despise us". So, the fabric starts to fall apart there. Americans being the most giving is debatable. On one end it is about "what" you give to the world, on the other end is "why" and thirdly, in between, the cost of it to the people who get given to. lol

Also, during roaring economic times, we give. And of our own choosing. During the 'Greedy 80s' charitable donations were up.

Really? So you run to statistics? BTW, statistics can be used to prove anything. I can show you that you gave less than Canada by manipulating stats. Your argument here is empty and as well, meaningless in context to what I said about the 80's. Also, don't even start to obfuscate the argument here with your demands for stats that you commonly throw out in order to defend your position through time wasting. It's a crappy tactic and I won't stoop to it,

That ticked me off. First off, I have worked since I was 16. Is this upsetting to you? Why? Second, you don't know a **** thing about me. You have no idea who I give to and how much. You don't know if I do volunteer work. So don't make statements about me when you don't know me.

I don't care if you worked in a salt mine, your view is myopic, I worked since before I was 16 and I continue to do so and I pay taxes and support health acre availability to each and every of my countrymen and I don't mind paying the taxes to cover it or supporting the government in their implementation of sin taxes to help with it.

You have no idea how things work down here. FYI, gasoline taxes, inspection fees, registration fees, and tolls are ways our roads are paid for. So since the day I began driving, I've been paying for the roads I use. Also FYI, our property taxes mainly go to fund education, not roads.

Depends on the state you live in and the tax base compared to the need to build infrastructure. I do understand how it works man, it really isn't a world apart from Canada you know...oh I guess you didn't and you think we have some kind of Kenyan legal system and tax structure up here due to us liking Obama or something? I can safely say, I probably know more about your country than you can ever know about mine. I say that about pretty much most americans due to the fact that the most well traveled americans are unfortunately it's soldiers, so americans tend to have the least worldly opinions on things. Statisically, it's a good bet that your average american has never even been out of america.

Is that your solution? To fix high unemployment by shutting down a major employer?

Major employer that doesn't provide health benefits of any real substance to most of it's workers, will not permit unions and pays as little as possible to it's employees and buys goods that are not made in america with as much frequency as possible. Yes, wal mart is messing with your economy. If all you see is employees, then again, you are myopic in your outlook.

What needs to be done is to make it easier/cheaper to run a business here in the US than abroad. The ONLY reason companies outsource is cost. When it's cheaper to do business in Communist China than in the US, there is a huge problem. Of course Obama's solution is to regulate and tax business more.

why on earth do you blame Obama for wheels that have been turning before he set foot in office. This is just a stupid and vindictive statement. Which coming from you is all too common actually.

as for you professing to be libertarian, well that's laughable! I find that many neo-cons like to hide behind that label.

Whatever man, your politics are idiotic as far as I'm concerned, I'll just let you continue to shout at bowlder dog now.

Again, how can you say that when you have no clue what I do or don't do in terms of charity and giving? So please shut up about things you know nothing about.

Cold hearted as though it may sound, my first responsibility is to my family. Not anyone else. If I CHOOSE to give, that's my business, but it should always be my CHOICE.

[David Jamieson]

Aid to Africa annoys me. Ungrateful and they squandered virtually every dime of it.

"they" who is "they"?

[1bad65]

as for you professing to be libertarian, well that's laughable! I find that many neo-cons like to hide behind that label.

Well let's see, I'm fiscally conservative and pretty liberal socially. Sounds like a libertarian. But to liberals anyone who likes free enterprise is a "neo-con". Par for the course.

Whatever man, your politics are idiotic as far as I'm concerned, I'll just let you continue to shout at bowlder dog now.

Of course you're done with me. You can't refute a single fact I pointed out.

We are the most giving country in the world. And I myself give about 40% of my money to our Government. So I'm a very giving person, and that's not even counting what I CHOOSE to give either.

[David Jamieson]

Well let's see, I'm fiscally conservative and pretty liberal socially. Sounds like a libertarian. But to liberals anyone who likes free enterprise is a "neo-con". Par for the course.



Of course you're done with me. You can't refute a single fact I pointed out.

We are the most giving country in the world. And I myself give about 40% of my money to our Government. So I'm a very giving person, and that's not even counting what I CHOOSE to give either.

I've refuted everything that you have presented as a "fact" where haven't I?
The fact of the matter is this.

almost 50 million Americans or 1 in 6 has no health care coverage.
Of the people with health care coverage, if they get laid off, they lose that for themselves and for their families under the current model.

For the dollar it will cost you per month, you are going to complain so vehemently that people's health is taken care of?

Do you think you'll be paying some immigrants 50k doctor bill all by yourself or something.

Dude, you come across as a selfish, heartless a-hole who doesn't care about his countrymen. Denying people health care based on you don't want to shell out the pennies it will take to make your effort to ensure that every american is covered?

You're just a cheap jerk. You talk about how you give to Africa, but you don't complain that you give to Africa? You complain about helping your fellow citizens? I believe your own president has crushed your feeble argument regarding Health Care anyway, so thankfully, it's not twits like you that vote in policy. Also, he crushed the positions of those idiot republicans who were actually stupid enough to take on the issues coming from the same myopic and feeble position of selfish greediness like yourself.

I guess you'll have to rise up and go back in time or something. lol

[Drake]

"they" who is "they"?

Uh... the countries we've donated to? That wasn't exactly cryptic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It all boils down to quality of life and one simple question:
Do you have it?