my visit with hendrik

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,
what's the process involved in transformation of the body to activate the snake engine.?

Please read my previous post. I dont like to repeat things again and again.

I dont expect you to be deadly serious, however, if you are even slightly serious go get some one to translate to you that Hua jin clip. the bottom line is there.

[theo]

Chinese Internal art's characteristics is Angular momentum because Angular solve the issue of what if the issue missed? Angular is what often describe in the IMA classical as withing Yin there is Yang, and Within Yang there is Yin. Linear is pure yang or pure Yin which is extreme . So even if the Jin is linear it is from the tangential of Angular instead of linear generation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrogr..._direct_motion


it is quick and short distance because it is Issuing instead of Hit. When the hand needs it, it is there.

The idea is as it said in the classical description:
????,?????Intention make a call and the spirit arrived, open close, ascend and decend.
????,????,????,????? silence as the autum's moon in the night sky, motion similar to cyclone, gentle handing the enemy, it is a matter within split of an inch.

That for me, IMHO, is WCK's ideal. and to be able to implement it, the Chuk Keng or fast jin is a must.




If one doenst have the body handling then one cant do it well. because the body has to follow hands/contact/situation to issue the pulse of momentum at the hand's request when needed.
The power of Siu Lin Tau is in the sensing / awareness of the contact condition and details handling cultivation. it is all about handling force vectors or dynamic momentum.

IE. Tan sau is for handling a certain type of momentum. Lap is other type. in the real life, the momentum one meet might not be the Tan type or Lap Type but a different type, so the one needs to generate that type, instead of rigidly applied Tan or Lap...etc.

also, if it is " body follow hand " then one often make a post, get a rigid solid body, then push out the arm and hands to do the Tan. but if it is "hand follow body" then one let the hand flow aware and when it needs power the body generate the momentum to echo the request according to the need at that instant. this is an adaptive type of training, instead of standing like a tower, generate the power, push out the arm and hand disregard what happen in an "open Loop" manner. SLT practice is a " Close loop" where ever changes were taken into consideration training. IMHO.

So, body follow hand and hand follow body are two different types of art. If one take a look at the Hung gar iron wire, that is a classical case of Hand follow body. Wu taiji or Yang taiji set is Body follow hand. So, this is what happen in the Momentum layer one needs to aware of.
Thus, doing Iron wire with soft and slow look still different then the Wu taiji because the momentum layer handling is different. Or doing SLT with soft and slow doesnt say what is really happen in the momentum layer.

Further more, the CLF evolve red boat art is using the hand follow body momentum generation instead of the SLT body follow hand type. This could be noticed as one always make the movement in the hip and then push out or hit out the arms. Instead of the hand is out there flowing and at any time when it makes a request the body supply it with momentum needed.


So, IMHO, if one get into the momentum layer. one will face these issue and that is close to the nature then modelling the reality with Tan Bong Fuk Kei and looks' soft. The close one get to the physics the clearer what one is doing and practicing. so, what I says above doesnt mean which is better but the intent is to know there exist different type of art with different type of signature in the momentum layer. and since in the momentum layer, the physical reality is the six directional force vectors, one needs to be able to handle those. A TAn is no longer a basic element in the momentum layer because Tan momentum at its contact is made up or a resultant of the six directional force vectors. IMHO. So to handle Tan effectively and efficiently one needs to handle the six directional force vectors in details. that is the name of the game of SLT.

Even in the sun punch there is boomerang retrograde concept..and yes with a purely linear strike that misses or neutralized, then one is stuck. And this gets into the idea of penetrating space, ocuppying it, and disrupting structure..without fire, reload, fire..and at the close distance the short jin is needed

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

Does thia book have a good explanation of your definition of hua jing ?http://www.amazon.com/Taijis-Perfect...f=pd_sim_d_1#_

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Does thia book have a good explanation of your definition of hua jing ?http://www.amazon.com/Taijis-Perfect...f=pd_sim_d_1#_

IMHO, in my chinglish and un edited typing. So, please for give my way of communication. read the content dont nail me with gramma or communication style.


1, look like an interesting book to read.

2, I dont know about this book.

3, Hua jing is not perfect force for me.

4, from the book's content...etc the author seems to have lots of reading knowledge about jin. however, looking at the following clip and scan his book, he cant do it. meaning he doesnt have the process thus cant do it and dont really know what it is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vauL-HwVb34


Fajin needs to be close to Hino Akira's demo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZMQW...eature=related
the whole body coordination needs to follow the hand. when the hand landed the whole body's movement must complete to send out that pulse or transfer the momentum out.

This Taiji teacher cant do it because his body is not transform and he is making it to be too complicated. and infact there is no way this type of training get anywhere or even be able to do a real punch. IMHO

two things to watch for real deal internal practioner or not. 1, legs always in a relax state, 2, body follow hand's needs.






So, after these pages and pages.... what is Fa Jin? it is just send out the momentum vectors or force vectors. what is Hua Jin, it is just dissolve or Scattering the incoming momentum vectors or force vectors so that its effect minimize. Simple like that. Fajin is skill full release of momentum vectors and that is not brute force collision.

In order to send out momentum the body needs to be condition and transform so that every part...joints....etc coordinate to integrate each others. To scattering incoming momentum the body needs to be condition and transform so that every parts of the body is able to dis-integrate to achieve the result. Rooting is an act of opposite to scattering ; rooting provide a path to oppose the incoming vectors using a structure supported via the ground similar to placing a pencil between a bull and a wall. the pencil is weak but at a certain angle it could do the job. Scattering is like placing a packaging pop corn between the glass and the package to absorbe the impact.

the pencil way always need to proper align and hold on... IE the TST demo. in real life a few degree off the whole thing collapse. as for the pop corn shock protector works well from any direction. Thus, pencil way rarely work in real life. even if one stand on different type of ground IE mat or solid floor that required one to change alignement and in the dynamic situation such as facing a grapper on top of the wrestling springy mat. that springy mat just burden or load or imbalance out of the structure. so be realistic.








Snake engine is to train to make sure the whole body can be differentiate into lots of small pieces and each small piece are alive and agile. 6D force vectors are just describing what happen in the 3 D space for both one and the opponents.

For SLT Snake and 6D are important because this set is a set about momentum handling. it is not a set like other Nam Kuen. So, if one doesnt train it properly, one will not get the result.

Why it is said the SLT needs to be done slowly? because one is actually feeling or sensing every joints of the body while doing it. thus, one needs to do it slowly. sure do it slowly doesnt seem to contribute to anything. but but when one is fluent with it and the body transform. it is like a multiple parallel gear supporting any movement one makes. As if one doesnt have this training, one will not have this type of power. This is Internal. it is not rely on any single structure or joint. it is the whole body is like a "transformer robot" it alignt.

So, dont be rediculus mimic and slowly doing the Saam bai fut section, and wishing somedays that it will give anything super nature to you , if you lock the heck out of your YJKYM and only the arm move. That just doesnt work. it violate the nature. the arm is just broken out from the whole body. and that is opposite to what the ancestors teach. let the whole body sync together....







If we freeze time now. go look at all the SLT or Red boat art or WCK in the youtube and see what they claim. just ask a simple question, can this thing deliver and recieve momentum? there you know how likely can those people FA Jin or not.

One time I told a sifu flat that his set practice cannot fajin. and he told me if I visit him to the east he will show me how he could fajin because he did the set in a different Taiji like way.

you know, that is misleading . how the heck one train a set 1000 ways ? no one has the time, and also it confuse the body. one train the set with only one way and keep fine tune it. and there is no such thing as train in demo way or Taiji way.

and in fact if one cant tell you Fajin is just sending momentum clearly, it is hopeless. how the heck is one training to get something one is clueless?

Fajin is just sending momentum. the Chen Taiji doing it via generate angular momentum or Torqe with its Dan dien area as center. thus, they call it " Dan Dien inner spin". The white crane doing it via snaping the joints like wCK's snaping wrist thus they called it " inch Jin joints power".
In Baji they call it 沉墜勁 sinking power, that is just dropping the body weight or another word, that is another variation of Boxing's Jack's falling step.
it is not a hit or a brute force collision, it is a sending out of momentum.


Simple stuffs no mysterious. Even Qi is not mysterious but as tangible as solid gold if one has the process.

it is hopeless if we dont attain what the ancient ancestors teach and keep trying to interplate it with our own speculation.





if you dont know where you going to how the heck you get there?


Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies
That filled our minds
You knew how I loved you
But my spirit was free
Laughin' at the questions
That you once asked of me


Now looking back at all we've planned
We let so many dreams
Just slip through our hands
Why must we wait so long
Before we'll see
How sad the answers
To those questions can be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaoGuZA0sCo


Just my opinion.

Again, I dont like to talk about how these stuffs use in fighting.

The bottom line, is I have experience how easy is health being taken away and how difficult is to repair a damage body. it is just not worthed to have those things happen in the name of EGO that I have the power and I can fight and.....

Technics and power exist but until one has the humanity it is better to not have them, for even an accident will make one no longer can live as it is anymore. only Love is invincible 仁者无敌.

[theo]

IMHO, in my chinglish and un edited typing. So, please for give my way of communication. read the content dont nail me with gramma or communication style.


1, look like an interesting book to read.

2, I dont know about this book.

3, Hua jing is not perfect force for me.

4, from the book's content...etc the author seems to have lots of reading knowledge about jin. however, looking at the following clip and scan his book, he cant do it. meaning he doesnt have the process thus cant do it and dont really know what it is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vauL-HwVb34


Fajin needs to be close to Hino Akira's demo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZMQW...eature=related
the whole body coordination needs to follow the hand. when the hand landed the whole body's movement must complete to send out that pulse or transfer the momentum out.

This Taiji teacher cant do it because his body is not transform and he is making it to be too complicated. and infact there is no way this type of training get anywhere or even be able to do a real punch. IMHO

two things to watch for real deal internal practioner or not. 1, legs always in a relax state, 2, body follow hand's needs.






So, after these pages and pages.... what is Fa Jin? it is just send out the momentum vectors or force vectors. what is Hua Jin, it is just dissolve or Scattering the incoming momentum vectors or force vectors so that its effect minimize. Simple like that. Fajin is skill full release of momentum vectors and that is not brute force collision.

In order to send out momentum the body needs to be condition and transform so that every part...joints....etc coordinate to integrate each others. To scattering incoming momentum the body needs to be condition and transform so that every parts of the body is able to dis-integrate to achieve the result. Rooting is an act of opposite to scattering ; rooting provide a path to oppose the incoming vectors using a structure supported via the ground similar to placing a pencil between a bull and a wall. the pencil is weak but at a certain angle it could do the job. Scattering is like placing a packaging pop corn between the glass and the package to absorbe the impact.

the pencil way always need to proper align and hold on... IE the TST demo. in real life a few degree off the whole thing collapse. as for the pop corn shock protector works well from any direction. Thus, pencil way rarely work in real life. even if one stand on different type of ground IE mat or solid floor that required one to change alignement and in the dynamic situation such as facing a grapper on top of the wrestling springy mat. that springy mat just burden or load or imbalance out of the structure. so be realistic.








Snake engine is to train to make sure the whole body can be differentiate into lots of small pieces and each small piece are alive and agile. 6D force vectors are just describing what happen in the 3 D space for both one and the opponents.

For SLT Snake and 6D are important because this set is a set about momentum handling. it is not a set like other Nam Kuen. So, if one doesnt train it properly, one will not get the result.

Why it is said the SLT needs to be done slowly? because one is actually feeling or sensing every joints of the body while doing it. thus, one needs to do it slowly. sure do it slowly doesnt seem to contribute to anything. but but when one is fluent with it and the body transform. it is like a multiple parallel gear supporting any movement one makes. As if one doesnt have this training, one will not have this type of power. This is Internal. it is not rely on any single structure or joint. it is the whole body is like a "transformer robot" it alignt.

So, dont be rediculus mimic and slowly doing the Saam bai fut section, and wishing somedays that it will give anything super nature to you , if you lock the heck out of your YJKYM and only the arm move. That just doesnt work. it violate the nature. the arm is just broken out from the whole body. and that is opposite to what the ancestors teach. let the whole body sync together....







If we freeze time now. go look at all the SLT or Red boat art or WCK in the youtube and see what they claim. just ask a simple question, can this thing deliver and recieve momentum? there you know how likely can those people FA Jin or not.

One time I told a sifu flat that his set practice cannot fajin. and he told me if I visit him to the east he will show me how he could fajin because he did the set in a different Taiji like way.

you know, that is misleading . how the heck one train a set 1000 ways ? no one has the time, and also it confuse the body. one train the set with only one way and keep fine tune it. and there is no such thing as train in demo way or Taiji way.

and in fact if one cant tell you Fajin is just sending momentum clearly, it is hopeless. how the heck is one training to get something one is clueless?

Fajin is just sending momentum. the Chen Taiji doing it via generate angular momentum or Torqe with its Dan dien area as center. thus, they call it " Dan Dien inner spin". The white crane doing it via snaping the joints like wCK's snaping wrist thus they called it " inch Jin joints power".
In Baji they call it 沉墜勁 sinking power, that is just dropping the body weight or another word, that is another variation of Boxing's Jack's falling step.
it is not a hit or a brute force collision, it is a sending out of momentum.


Simple stuffs no mysterious. Even Qi is not mysterious but as tangible as solid gold if one has the process.

it is hopeless if we dont attain what the ancient ancestors teach and keep trying to interplate it with our own speculation.





if you dont know where you going to how the heck you get there?


Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies
That filled our minds
You knew how I loved you
But my spirit was free
Laughin' at the questions
That you once asked of me


Now looking back at all we've planned
We let so many dreams
Just slip through our hands
Why must we wait so long
Before we'll see
How sad the answers
To those questions can be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaoGuZA0sCo


Just my opinion.

Again, I dont like to talk about how these stuffs use in fighting.

The bottom line, is I have experience how easy is health being taken away and how difficult is to repair a damage body. it is just not worthed to have those things happen in the name of EGO that I have the power and I can fight and.....

Technics and power exist but until one has the humanity it is better to not have them, for even an accident will make one no longer can live as it is anymore. only Love is invincible 仁者无敌.

doesn't get much clearer than that in my opinion...why try to imagine things they way they could be or should be but just find out the way they are. if one is to take it even further than that, then the first thing to understand is the way it is isn't it?

could be my speculation? when one is doing the SLT in Loose, Silence, and Nature, those three keys at once, then the SLT becomes more than just a set of moves or the so-called "alphabet" though in many ways it is the alphabet. sure we can look at as introducing the fook, tan, bong, etc.. but are we simply mimicking what sifu says or just doing it the "what feels natural" way?

with Loose, Silence, and Nature at once, with the breathing relaxed and sunk, and the meridians activated, then one can begin to know what really is moving with Nature. then there is no angle or degree that tan must be, how bent a fook is because one is doing it according to Natural.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=theo;1071680]doesn't get much clearer than that in my opinion...
with Loose, Silence, and Nature at once, with the breathing relaxed and sunk, and the meridians activated, then one can begin to know what really is moving with Nature. then there is no angle or degree that tan must be, how bent a fook is because one is doing it according to Natural.[/QUOTE---------------------
______________________________________________
A word of caution-above is good as far as it goes...

but structural requirements are also part of nature.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

A word of caution-above is good as far as it goes...

but structural requirements are also part of nature.

Yes, agree.

Structure requirements are just tips to return to nature full potential use of the body, instead of holding something trying to create some special structure similar to placing pencil between wall and the bull to stop the bull.


also,

The equivalent of WCK's snake engine in Taji is called "string of nine pearls" meaning the nine pearls or nine joints of the body string up and activate to handling Jin...etc.

Thus, whatever it is called, to get to that depth one needs the same level of technology.

[theo]

Yes, agree.

Structure requirements are just tips to return to nature full potential use of the body, instead of holding something trying to create some special structure similar to placing pencil between wall and the bull to stop the bull.


also,

The equivalent of WCK's snake engine in Taji is called "string of nine pearls" meaning the nine pearls or nine joints of the body string up and activate to handling Jin...etc.

Thus, whatever it is called, to get to that depth one needs the same level of technology.

thanks joy and hendrik, structure requirements are also important to keep in mind since they can help us to become more aware of what should be natural

[LoneTiger108]

Fajin needs to be close to Hino Akira's demo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZMQW...eature=related
the whole body coordination needs to follow the hand. when the hand landed the whole body's movement must complete to send out that pulse or transfer the momentum out.

You really believe that clip is real? Have you stood at the back of a queue like that and felt him yourself?

I've seen too many charlatans attempt this on the 'unconvinced' and guess what? No flying around like a rag doll.

... So, after these pages and pages.... what is Fa Jin? it is just send out the momentum vectors or force vectors. what is Hua Jin, it is just dissolve or Scattering the incoming momentum vectors or force vectors so that its effect minimize. Simple like that. Fajin is skill full release of momentum vectors and that is not brute force collision.

Thanks for putting it into simple enuff terms Hendrik. All this chatter now makes better sense to me somehow.

[LoneTiger108]

with Loose, Silence, and Nature at once, with the breathing relaxed and sunk, and the meridians activated, then one can begin to know what really is moving with Nature. then there is no angle or degree that tan must be, how bent a fook is because one is doing it according to Natural.

What this describes to me is entering Mo Gik (Wu Chi) and all that is preparing you for is 'self defence' in the spiritual sense imho. Yes it can be used to learn new things, but to develop them physically into something powerful requires many other stages.

That, I feel, will not be accomplished through the 12 Zhuang itself. You must take that 'naturalness' through the cycles of development stage by stage and under very strict observation. It's hard to find a Wing Chun sifu that will have this patience with his/her students as it is a taichi like approach and many WCK Sifus just want to offer that 'quick fix' or fighting method.

Props to you for visiting Hendrik and stuff, but who is now teaching you Wing Chun?

[Hendrik]

You really believe that clip is real? Have you stood at the back of a queue like that and felt him yourself?

May be we could ask Theo to share his view on if that is possible, why it is possible, and why it is needed.

Real or demo,
For me, if one is skill in handling momentum those are within the range of the game. and how to break such a momentum? simply using the pak sau without the entire body behind it. Those are just games in the realm of momentum layer.

To be able to play within this realm means Doong Jin or knowing how to play with momentum. So, if one read the Taji classic and see the term doong Jin, that just means knowing how to play with momentum.

As in billiard ball game, those people who knows how to handle the ball, they can do fun demo which might be used or not used in the tournament. That is not the issue, the issue is seeing what they can do , one knows how much they have control on what they are doing and how far they have gone into that field.

[theo]

May be we could ask Theo to share his view on if that is possible, why it is possible, and why it is needed.

Real or demo,
For me, if one is skill in handling momentum those are within the range of the game. and how to break such a momentum? simply using the pak sau without the entire body behind it. Those are just games in the realm of momentum layer.

To be able to play within this realm means Doong Jin or knowing how to play with momentum. So, if one read the Taji classic and see the term doong Jin, that just means knowing how to play with momentum.

As in billiard ball game, those people who knows how to handle the ball, they can do fun demo which might be used or not used in the tournament. That is not the issue, the issue is seeing what they can do , one knows how much they have control on what they are doing and how far they have gone into that field.

based on what i experienced, i would have to say i believe it is possible. after all, the fajin went through the cushions i was holding and i felt it penetrate the body. why is this possible? it is the transfer of momentum. when one can control the magnitude and direction, it's just like firing the pulse to the desired location. but the generated momentum cannot get scattered or stuck one's body during release. when one can release it cleanly, that is without any part of the body affecting its release (momentum transfer), then it can penetrate with varying depth and magnitude depending on one's control. however if any part of the body is not conditioned well enough to transfer the generated power cleanly without resistance or experiences "turbulence" then the released power is fragmented or broken and thus gets scattered easily, imho

[LoneTiger108]

based on what i experienced, i would have to say i believe it is possible. after all, the fajin went through the cushions i was holding and i felt it penetrate the body. why is this possible? it is the transfer of momentum. when one can control the magnitude and direction, it's just like firing the pulse to the desired location.

No disrespect is indended here Theo, but I could do this when I was, like, thirteen! Or something very similar, which I later learned was called Choon Ging - Inch Power. A similar test was using a few yellow pages on the body and slowly move the force through the pages until you could feel it on the surface of the abdomen, then further, deeper into the body causing the loss of breath. Once you penetrate beyond the spine the force begins to move you backwards.

Classic Brucie stuff really, learnt through a Jim Demile manual and practised on hanging paper and my cousin!

[CFT]

Gary Lam's latest column in Masters Magazine ( Spring 2011 issue ) talks about "hand before body", "body before hand", etc. Title is "A Punch Is Never Just A Punch".

In fighting, there are three types of motion used to explode one’s power. First, there’s the “Body Mechanics Exploding” motion. This type of motion uses body mechanics to move and explode one’s power. These movements involve moving the body first before punching. The second type of motion is “Distance and Speed Exploding Power.” Here, speed times the distance a strike must travel equals the power generated through the strike. The third type of motion is, "Power Point Exploding.”. This involves using a technique such as the Straight Punch to hit a target. Here, the hand moves first, followed by the body.

Wing Chun favors “Power Point Exploding” techniques like the Straight Punch for three reasons. One, a straight line is the fastest way to hit a target. Two, the reaction time with this technique is very short because unlike western style punches, the Straight Punch is never chambered; i.e. the punching arm does not have to be fully bent to generate the power needed to strike effectively. Three, should the fighter miss the target, he won’t be off balance.

[GlennR]

Wing Chun favors “Power Point Exploding” techniques like the Straight Punch for three reasons. One, a straight line is the fastest way to hit a target. Two, the reaction time with this technique is very short because unlike western style punches, the Straight Punch is never chambered; i.e. the punching arm does not have to be fully bent to generate the power needed to strike effectively. Three, should the fighter miss the target, he won’t be off balance.


With all respect to Gary Lam, his take on western boxing is pretty poor